# It’s time!



## UnionizeHSV (Apr 2, 2022)

With the news this weekend of Amazon unionizing in Staten Island it is time for Target to get a taste of that also.  I am an OM at T580 in Huntsville, AL and I will be leading the charge.  More information to follow shortly!

Workers unite and Fight the power!


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## Hardlinesmaster (Apr 2, 2022)

UnionizeHSV said:


> With the news this weekend of Amazon unionizing in Staten Island it is time for Target to get a taste of that also.  I am an OM at T580 in Huntsville, AL and I will be leading the charge.  More information to follow shortly!
> 
> Workers unite and Fight the power!


Not here.








						Union Blasts Target Closure
					

Union Blasts Target Closure



					www.huffpost.com


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 2, 2022)

I grew up in a union family (my dad was a skilled trades worker), and so I'm well aware of the benefits that a union CAN provide to workers. But if this actually were to gain ground, I'd vote no. That's partly because I'm not interested in paying dues for something I think is unncessary, but more because I've seen how a union can cause some workers to be treated in ways that I consider to be unfair.
Maybe other TMs see value in it, but I sure don't.


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## Rarejem (Apr 2, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> I've seen how a union can cause some workers to be treated in ways that I consider to be unfair.


Can you elaborate?


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## KarmaToBurn (Apr 2, 2022)

Not likely, but a lot of the young kids at my store been talking for months....


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## DC Diva (Apr 3, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> I grew up in a union family (my dad was a skilled trades worker), and so I'm well aware of the benefits that a union CAN provide to workers. But if this actually were to gain ground, I'd vote no. That's partly because I'm not interested in paying dues for something I think is unncessary, but more because I've seen how a union can cause some workers to be treated in ways that I consider to be unfair.
> Maybe other TMs see value in it, but I sure don't.


I’m not sure how I would feel about it.  At the beginning of my time at Target, I thought the company was great the way it was, the team I was assigned to, everyone was primarily happy.  There were clear guidelines as to what a TM should and should not do, which for the most part were enforced by leaders in a fair manner.  Now, many years later, in our current culture, this is no longer the case.  Depending on who you are, and your relationship with your leaders, determines what you can or cannot get away with.  Raises are not given fairly on some teams, bonuses are based on who you are and how much your leader likes you, not on your actual performance or the portion of your team workload that you happen to carry.   A Union would change all these things.  But, the trade off would be TM paying monthly dues for that representation.  Anyone that knows anyone in a union, well for the most part the benefits are much more affordable, I still have a hard time believing that Target cannot get better insurance rates for its team members with the size of this company.  What we pay per paycheck is insane compared to most union members, especially when factoring in family coverage.


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 4, 2022)

DC Diva said:


> A Union would change all these things.


This is what the union organizers want potential members to think. Reality doesn't always work out that way. I've seen it in action, while working as a non-union temp on assignments where almost all the permanent staff were unionized.


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 4, 2022)

Rarejem said:


> Can you elaborate?


A for instance: certain workers coming in late, taking long lunches, and leaving early, consistently, and never being called to task for it. This is when I was a long-term temp employee on an assignment for a very large unionized organization. When I asked how they got away with it, I was told that it was so difficult to fire a union employee that the higher-ups didn't think it was worth all the hassle for anything less than something egregious. Yet, their co-workers seem to be expected to pick up their slack.
Another: some workers were told to stop working so hard because it made the rest of them look bad. I didn't work there, but trust the source - my friend was part of a team that really busted their butts and did a really good job. Problem was that their hard work pointed out that other teams in the company were lazy in comparison. They were "teased" in a rather pointed way to knock it off. But the hard-working team wasn't paid any better; in fact, because they had less seniority, they were paid less.
One from my own family: my dad was helping my brother as brother was remodeling a house. (He used to buy one fixer-upper at a time, do all the fixing up himself, and then sell it.) Brother was pushing to get a lot done, Dad was "What's the big rush? We have all day." This was after 45+ years as a union member. Brother was more like "Time is money, so get a move on." Dad did good work, but he was slow and didn't see how that was a problem. He could have got more done, just didn't see why it mattered.
I could go on, but those are the ones that come to mind.
If we had unsafe working conditions, were subjected to abusive behavior, or some other terrible actions on the part of management, I might think differently.


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## RWTM (Apr 4, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> A for instance: certain workers coming in late, taking long lunches, and leaving early, consistently, and never being called to task for it. This is when I was a long-term temp employee on an assignment for a very large unionized organization. When I asked how they got away with it, I was told that it was so difficult to fire a union employee that the higher-ups didn't think it was worth all the hassle for anything less than something egregious. Yet, their co-workers seem to be expected to pick up their slack.
> Another: some workers were told to stop working so hard because it made the rest of them look bad. I didn't work there, but trust the source - my friend was part of a team that really busted their butts and did a really good job. Problem was that their hard work pointed out that other teams in the company were lazy in comparison. They were "teased" in a rather pointed way to knock it off. But the hard-working team wasn't paid any better; in fact, because they had less seniority, they were paid less.
> One from my own family: my dad was helping my brother as brother was remodeling a house. (He used to buy one fixer-upper at a time, do all the fixing up himself, and then sell it.) Brother was pushing to get a lot done, Dad was "What's the big rush? We have all day." This was after 45+ years as a union member. Brother was more like "Time is money, so get a move on." Dad did good work, but he was slow and didn't see how that was a problem. He could have got more done, just didn't see why it mattered.
> I could go on, but those are the ones that come to mind.
> If we had unsafe working conditions, were subjected to abusive behavior, or some other terrible actions on the part of management, I might think differently.


Dat part


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## commiecorvus (Apr 4, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> A for instance: certain workers coming in late, taking long lunches, and leaving early, consistently, and never being called to task for it. This is when I was a long-term temp employee on an assignment for a very large unionized organization. When I asked how they got away with it, I was told that it was so difficult to fire a union employee that the higher-ups didn't think it was worth all the hassle for anything less than something egregious. Yet, their co-workers seem to be expected to pick up their slack.
> Another: some workers were told to stop working so hard because it made the rest of them look bad. I didn't work there, but trust the source - my friend was part of a team that really busted their butts and did a really good job. Problem was that their hard work pointed out that other teams in the company were lazy in comparison. They were "teased" in a rather pointed way to knock it off. But the hard-working team wasn't paid any better; in fact, because they had less seniority, they were paid less.
> One from my own family: my dad was helping my brother as brother was remodeling a house. (He used to buy one fixer-upper at a time, do all the fixing up himself, and then sell it.) Brother was pushing to get a lot done, Dad was "What's the big rush? We have all day." This was after 45+ years as a union member. Brother was more like "Time is money, so get a move on." Dad did good work, but he was slow and didn't see how that was a problem. He could have got more done, just didn't see why it mattered.
> I could go on, but those are the ones that come to mind.
> If we had unsafe working conditions, were subjected to abusive behavior, or some other terrible actions on the part of management, I might think differently.



The bad workers getting away with shit is entirely on the piss poor management.
My wife was a union rep for the teacher union and the fact is you can fire teachers, you just have to do the paperwork.
So many principles just didn't want to do the work.
They would rather transfer the teacher to another school and make them somebody else's problem rather than do their damned jobs.

As to the long time workers telling the newbies that they were making them look bad, if I had a penny for every time I'd heard that chestnut I'd be a rich man.
Also the less seniority getting paid less, but if you look at the last two major strikes, John Deere and Kellogg's one of the major points they were striking about was the company trying to set up a two tier system where new employees would be paid less and get less benefits.
They won by the way and kept the companies from fucking over new employees that way.
That's why you need unions at your back.

Your dad had it right.
My father was a union carpenter all his life and he believed you took your time to get the project right the first time, not rushing and fuck it up.
It's the old measure twice, cut once adage.
I also would not have made it through my teenage years with epilepsy if it hadn't been for the Carpenter's Union insurance.


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 4, 2022)

commiecorvus said:


> Your dad had it right.
> My father was a union carpenter all his life and he believed you took your time to get the project right the first time, not rushing and fuck it up.
> It's the old measure twice, cut once adage.


Have your opinions about unions, but please do not disparage my brother's work. I should be so fortunate to live in a house that benefited from my brother's craftsmanship. He doesn't rush and end up with a poor result. But he doesn't take all day to do something that could be done in a morning either.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 4, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> Have your opinions about unions, but please do not disparage my brother's work. I should be so fortunate to live in a house that benefited from my brother's craftsmanship. He doesn't rush and end up with a poor result. But he doesn't take all day to do something that could be done in a morning either.



Not insulting your brother, rather supporting your father's perspective.
Your brother is probably a fine craftsman and makes a great house.
Does that make your dad's approach bad?
I think you'll find that you become an old carpenter and don't lose your fingers or toes by being more calm and careful.
I can't tell you how many craftsman we get in DVR who have destroyed their bodies by working at killer speeds all their life.


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## Tacopie (Apr 4, 2022)

Union dues? No thank you.


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## DC Diva (Apr 4, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> A for instance: certain workers coming in late, taking long lunches, and leaving early, consistently, and never being called to task for it. This is when I was a long-term temp employee on an assignment for a very large unionized organization. When I asked how they got away with it, I was told that it was so difficult to fire a union employee that the higher-ups didn't think it was worth all the hassle for anything less than something egregious. Yet, their co-workers seem to be expected to pick up their slack.


You think this isn’t going on now in our buildings?  target tends to shy away from firing, even without a union.   the appeal, at least to me, would be taking preferences and favoritism out of reviews and bonuses.  everyone treated the same, because is in writing, in the contract.


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## seasonaldude (Apr 4, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> A for instance: certain workers coming in late, taking long lunches, and leaving early, consistently, and never being called to task for it. This is when I was a long-term temp employee on an assignment for a very large unionized organization. When I asked how they got away with it, I was told that it was so difficult to fire a union employee that the higher-ups didn't think it was worth all the hassle for anything less than something egregious. Yet, their co-workers seem to be expected to pick up their slack.
> Another: some workers were told to stop working so hard because it made the rest of them look bad. I didn't work there, but trust the source - my friend was part of a team that really busted their butts and did a really good job. Problem was that their hard work pointed out that other teams in the company were lazy in comparison. They were "teased" in a rather pointed way to knock it off. But the hard-working team wasn't paid any better; in fact, because they had less seniority, they were paid less.
> One from my own family: my dad was helping my brother as brother was remodeling a house. (He used to buy one fixer-upper at a time, do all the fixing up himself, and then sell it.) Brother was pushing to get a lot done, Dad was "What's the big rush? We have all day." This was after 45+ years as a union member. Brother was more like "Time is money, so get a move on." Dad did good work, but he was slow and didn't see how that was a problem. He could have got more done, just didn't see why it mattered.
> I could go on, but those are the ones that come to mind.
> If we had unsafe working conditions, were subjected to abusive behavior, or some other terrible actions on the part of management, I might think differently.



Counterpoint:

“Suppose that, at a given moment, a certain number of people are engaged in the manufacture of pins. They make as many pins as the world needs, working (say) eight hours a day. Someone makes an invention by which the same number of men can make twice as many pins: pins are already so cheap that hardly any more will be bought at a lower price. In a sensible world, everybody concerned in the manufacturing of pins would take to working four hours instead of eight, and everything else would go on as before. But in the actual world this would be thought demoralizing. The men still work eight hours, there are too many pins, some employers go bankrupt, and half the men previously concerned in making pins are thrown out of work. There is, in the end, just as much leisure as on the other plan, but half the men are totally idle while half are still overworked. In this way, it is insured that the unavoidable leisure shall cause misery all round instead of being a universal source of happiness. Can anything more insane be imagined?”​
--Bertrand Russell


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## WHS (Apr 5, 2022)

Tacopie said:


> Union dues? No thank you.


Union workers across the board are higher paid and have better benefits.  If you pay $300 a year in union fees but health insurance is now $100 cheaper every month?  How is that not worth it.


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## Dream Baby (Apr 5, 2022)

I wonder what union these Amazon workers are trying to join.

How would this affect Target if the DC unionize but not the stores?

I imagine the percent of full-time workers at DC is much larger than a store.

The amount of warehouses in general must have exploded this past few years.


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## WHS (Apr 5, 2022)

Dream Baby said:


> I wonder what union these Amazon workers are trying to join.
> 
> How would this affect Target if the DC unionize but not the stores?
> 
> ...


Everyone at the warehouse is a full time worker and I can’t speak for other companies but Target hasn’t really been building many new warehouses


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## Black Sheep 214 (Apr 5, 2022)

Insurance is a part of life these days. People buy medical, dental, vision, life, homeowners or renters, car, sometimes boat, aircraft, pet, collection or other types of insurance to protect themselves against loss. Union dues are employment insurance. Union dues are totally worth it because the Union protects your job, wages, working conditions, provides you with insurance, fights for higher wages and provides help with grievances. All reasons why Target hates them so much.


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## Dream Baby (Apr 5, 2022)

WHS said:


> Everyone at the warehouse is a full time worker and I can’t speak for other companies but Target hasn’t really been building many new warehouses


I meant there are more warehouse workers in general not just Target ones.


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## qmosqueen (Apr 5, 2022)

Up to 24 per hour.  Ha ha ha


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## dcworker (Apr 5, 2022)

qmosqueen said:


> Up to 24 per hour.  Ha ha ha


Already making more than that.


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## Yellowstone96 (Apr 6, 2022)

UnionizeHSV said:


> With the news this weekend of Amazon unionizing in Staten Island it is time for Target to get a taste of that also.  I am an OM at T580 in Huntsville, AL and I will be leading the charge.  More information to follow shortly!
> 
> Workers unite and Fight the power!


NOPE. NOT PAYING UNION DUES


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## WHS (Apr 6, 2022)

Yellowstone96 said:


> NOPE. NOT PAYING UNION DUES


Thanks for the thrilling argument


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## Dream Baby (Apr 6, 2022)

The Amazon warehouse that just unionized has over 8,000 employees!









						Amazon’s NYC warehouse votes to unionize — drawing White House praise
					

Shortly before tallying ended on Friday, the vote stood at 2,300 votes in favor of the union and 1,855 against — in what appeared to be an insurmountable lead.




					nypost.com


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## aifbeewert (Apr 6, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> A for instance: certain workers coming in late, taking long lunches, and leaving early, consistently, and never being called to task for it. This is when I was a long-term temp employee on an assignment for a very large unionized organization. When I asked how they got away with it, I was told that it was so difficult to fire a union employee that the higher-ups didn't think it was worth all the hassle for anything less than something egregious. Yet, their co-workers seem to be expected to pick up their slack.
> Another: some workers were told to stop working so hard because it made the rest of them look bad. I didn't work there, but trust the source - my friend was part of a team that really busted their butts and did a really good job. Problem was that their hard work pointed out that other teams in the company were lazy in comparison. They were "teased" in a rather pointed way to knock it off. But the hard-working team wasn't paid any better; in fact, because they had less seniority, they were paid less.
> One from my own family: my dad was helping my brother as brother was remodeling a house. (He used to buy one fixer-upper at a time, do all the fixing up himself, and then sell it.) Brother was pushing to get a lot done, Dad was "What's the big rush? We have all day." This was after 45+ years as a union member. Brother was more like "Time is money, so get a move on." Dad did good work, but he was slow and didn't see how that was a problem. He could have got more done, just didn't see why it mattered.
> I could go on, but those are the ones that come to mind.
> If we had unsafe working conditions, were subjected to abusive behavior, or some other terrible actions on the part of management, I might think differently.



Nothing wrong with any of this. You are a very delusional person if you think working 150% at all times, in a manual labor job where your body is being damaged, is something to be proud of. The company isn't going to pay you more for it.


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## Yellowstone96 (Apr 6, 2022)

dcworker said:


> Already making more than that.


Same


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## IhateOPmodel (Apr 6, 2022)

Black Sheep 214 said:


> Insurance is a part of life these days. People buy medical, dental, vision, life, homeowners or renters, car, sometimes boat, aircraft, pet, collection or other types of insurance to protect themselves against loss. Union dues are employment insurance. Union dues are totally worth it because the Union protects your job, wages, working conditions, provides you with insurance, fights for higher wages and provides help with grievances. All reasons why Target hates them so much.


Serious question, but I've been told that union jobs are anti team work.  Is this true?

For example if someone who is loading the truck needs help from someone who is picking orders, are they allowed to help out?  Or is it "not their job"?

Also does it make it harder to deal with poor performance? I have never had any issues or wished that I had someone to help me fight for my job or protect my job.  I guess I've been lucky.


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## Black Sheep 214 (Apr 6, 2022)

IhateOPmodel said:


> Serious question, but I've been told that union jobs are anti team work.  Is this true?
> 
> For example if someone who is loading the truck needs help from someone who is picking orders, are they allowed to help out?  Or is it "not their job"?
> 
> Also does it make it harder to deal with poor performance? I have never had any issues or wished that I had someone to help me fight for my job or protect my job.  I guess I've been lucky.



I wouldn’t call it anti-team work. Its old school team work, where instead of giving each TM a job but pulling them away from it constantly to do someone else’s job because hours are cut to the bone and no area is fully staffed, a Union shop is more fully staffed and each TM has the opportunity to finish their job to support the team so that everything gets done. Its true that under unionization cashiers cashier, sales floor TMs work sales floor, price change does price change, fulfillment does fulfillment, etc., but it’s also true that TMs have more hours to complete their workload and are allowed to do the jobs they were hired for. This builds a stronger, happier team, because it eliminates the resentment that people have when they are constantly sent to help in other areas leaving them unable to complete their own tasks, yet being held responsible by management when those tasks remain unfinished.

It is also easier to tell who is slacking because there is more concrete accountability. There are rules for dealing with slackers, they do not get a free ride unless management allows them to through their own inaction.

The Union does fight for the Union member who is the target of unfair treatment by management.  Having the Union behind you that situation would be a Godsend, because in a non-Union workplace like Target no one will be. Forget the Hotline or anything else, you’re on your own and management holds all the cards. The Union evens things up and gives you a fighting chance.😁


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## dcworker (Apr 7, 2022)

Dream Baby said:


> The Amazon warehouse that just unionized has over 8,000 employees!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


New York City population 8.80 million


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## IhateOPmodel (Apr 7, 2022)

Black Sheep 214 said:


> where instead of giving each TM a job but pulling them away from it constantly to do someone else’s job because hours are cut to the bone and no area is fully staffed, a Union shop is more fully staffed and each TM has the opportunity to finish their job to support the team so that everything gets done


So you mean to tell me there are never unforseen circumstances? A call off or a surprise delivery that just has to be put off because no union employee for that task is available?  Not everything goes according to schedule and shit happens. I'm not entirely sure how a DC works, but I'm sure there are instances where this union rule can be a pain in the ass.  It doesn't sound like a "team" I'd want to be apart of let alone pay to be apart of.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 7, 2022)

IhateOPmodel said:


> So you mean to tell me there are never unforseen circumstances? A call off or a surprise delivery that just has to be put off because no union employee for that task is available?  Not everything goes according to schedule and shit happens. I'm not entirely sure how a DC works, but I'm sure there are instances where this union rule can be a pain in the ass.  It doesn't sound like a "team" I'd want to be apart of let alone pay to be apart of.



I work a union job right now and my duties look nothing like my job description but that's another story.
The main point is right now we are having a hard time filling positions so I am jumping in all over the place to be backup.
My union has no problem with this as long as the work I'm doing doesn't fall into a management category or something else that I should be paid more for.
In other words all the people who are kept dancing on the end of strings being told they will be TL some day but kept doing the work of a TL?
Yeah, that ain't happening.


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 13, 2022)

aifbeewert said:


> You are a very delusional person if you think working 150% at all times, in a manual labor job where your body is being damaged, is something to be proud of.


Where does this come from?


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 13, 2022)

seasonaldude said:


> Counterpoint:
> 
> “Suppose that, at a given moment, a certain number of people are engaged in the manufacture of pins. They make as many pins as .....​


I must be especially dense today, because I don't get how this applies to what we do at Target. Having an over-abundance of a commodity in an indication to switch to the manufacture of another product, not to keep churning out more of something no one needs more of. Likewise, shifting workers to different tasks that need doing if their work load is lighter than usual.
Unless it's the cashier at my store who gabs with guests incessantly even when the GS TL is calling for back-up multiple times in one shift? How about everyone pulls their own weight, helping out where needed? We don't need to be a union shop for that to happen.


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 13, 2022)

DC Diva said:


> You think this isn’t going on now in our buildings?  target tends to shy away from firing, even without a union.   the appeal, at least to me, would be taking preferences and favoritism out of reviews and bonuses.  everyone treated the same, because is in writing, in the contract.


Oh, I wouldn't say this doesn't happen now. In fact, I've witnessed it multiple times with certain TMs being treated very differently by the same TL, depending on their relationship. Like the same movies or sports or whatever and you're golden, whether or not you're a good worker. Don't play the suck-up game and be prepared to get shorter shifts or treated poorly - but nowhere near illegally - and be gaslighted. (So glad that particular TL is no longer at my store.)
Being unionized wouldn't keep favoritism from happening. Maybe it should, but it wouldn't. It'd just be expressed in different ways.


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 13, 2022)

commiecorvus said:


> Does that make your dad's approach bad?
> I think you'll find that you become an old carpenter and don't lose your fingers or toes by being more calm and careful.
> I can't tell you how many craftsman we get in DVR who have destroyed their bodies by working at killer speeds all their life.


Sigh. I'm so tired of people making assumptions about other people they don't actually know. My brother doesn't work at "killer speeds" - he's done all kinds of work and still has all his fingers and toes, hasn't electrocuted himself or fallen off a roof, etc. He's careful, probably at least in part because he usually works alone. His body is in no worse shape than anyone who's done a lot of physical labor, probably better because he keeps himself fit, and we're both nearing retirement age.
My dad's approach to helping my brother was a mismatch at best.
A non-construction work example: A housemate and I went grocery shopping together once. She's what I'd call a recreational shopper - likes to wander, chat with everyone, takes a l-o-n-g time. I have my list, cross things off as I go, and get out the door. Shopping together was a mistake - I felt like it was taking forever and she didn't appreciate me rushing her along. Nothing wrong with either method, but we didn't grocery shop together again.
My dad did fine work as an electrician, but his approach was ingrained after working 40+ years in union shops. My brother's approach is still safe but completely different because he's self-employed and making his own decisions about how he gets his work done.


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## FlowTeamChick (Apr 13, 2022)

Black Sheep 214 said:


> It is also easier to tell who is slacking because there is more concrete accountability. There are rules for dealing with slackers, they do not get a free ride unless management allows them to through their own inaction.


Depends how the contract is written. Some can "protect" the workers so much that it's nearly impossible to fire someone even when it's completely deserved. Or the contract can make it so the worker can stretch out a grievance process and work the system to their advantage, even if they're in the wrong.
There's no perfect work place, unionized or not. And I don't believe that Target being unionized will make my life better.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 13, 2022)

FlowTeamChick said:


> Sigh. I'm so tired of people making assumptions about other people they don't actually know. My brother doesn't work at "killer speeds" - he's done all kinds of work and still has all his fingers and toes, hasn't electrocuted himself or fallen off a roof, etc. He's careful, probably at least in part because he usually works alone. His body is in no worse shape than anyone who's done a lot of physical labor, probably better because he keeps himself fit, and we're both nearing retirement age.
> My dad's approach to helping my brother was a mismatch at best.
> A non-construction work example: A housemate and I went grocery shopping together once. She's what I'd call a recreational shopper - likes to wander, chat with everyone, takes a l-o-n-g time. I have my list, cross things off as I go, and get out the door. Shopping together was a mistake - I felt like it was taking forever and she didn't appreciate me rushing her along. Nothing wrong with either method, but we didn't grocery shop together again.
> My dad did fine work as an electrician, but his approach was ingrained after working 40+ years in union shops. My brother's approach is still safe but completely different because he's self-employed and making his own decisions about how he gets his work done.



Fair enough.
If that's the way you had framed it in the first place I would have been totally supportive.
Good workers should be able to pick a pace that works well for them.
The speed running of projects that corporations have forced on people has made work more dangerous and psychologically destructive.


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## RWTM (Apr 13, 2022)

How’s it coming along?


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