# Dealing with backstabbing TMs



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 1, 2021)

I'll keep it as vague as possible to protect identities, but the other day, one of my TMs did something bad enough that I think corrective action should be considered (there is no ambiguity about the bad behavior - it's verifiable). I spoke to them one-on-one and coached them and was especially careful to be kind and understanding and asking if they needed help to do better. I was mindful not to say anything too harsh or to give this person an out.

I guess my instinct was correct, because they went around me complaining about the meeting, and I had to explain myself to the higher ups. The coaching was characterized in a completely false way, and basically a total 180 from the way I actually conducted myself and coached them.

My question is, since I've never had a person try to pull this blatant of a lie on me, is how to deal with this person going forward? Should any further performance convos be done in the presence of another leader? I do expect the bad behavior to continue so I do expect to be coaching this person again. I want to protect my butt, so I think a closed door one-on-one is probably a bad idea in the future.

What do y'all think? How did you handle a similar situation and did it turn out well?

Thanks!


----------



## allnew2 (Feb 2, 2021)

NotCynicalYet said:


> Should any further performance convos be done in the presence of another leader?


For sure . Any time I had to deal with a aggressive or combative team member I always had to have a leader or Etl with me , Just cover your ass.


----------



## sunnydays (Feb 2, 2021)

first,


> one of my TMs did something bad enough that I think corrective action should be considered


at this point i would have taken HR as a partner to determine whether or not a corrective action conversation was warranted because having the PIP conversation might have been unnecessary (depending on whether or not your TM broke the rules severely enough for a CCA)


> is how to deal with this person going forward?


on a moment to moment basis? interact with them as normal


> Should any further performance convos be done in the presence of another leader?


100%, absolutely


----------



## Hardlinesmaster (Feb 2, 2021)

Document all events


----------



## Yetive (Feb 2, 2021)

I would circle back to that team member.  You can do it with someone else if you feel more comfortable.  
First, get with HR to determine whether it rises to the level of a CA.  Most things do not for just one incident, but perhaps this does. 
If no CA, tell the team member that you wanted to make sure everything was ok, and that you were concerned that he might have questions about your previous conversation.  Explain that he seemed to have a different perception of what was discussed.  Answer any questions.  
In future, if you think something might warrant a CA, make that part of the STU, and let the team member know that it might turn into a CA.  If you are being direct and honest, there is no reason to worry about being especially kind, or not harsh.  Stick to the facts, and set expectations.


----------



## Planosss enraged (Feb 2, 2021)

Yetive said:


> I would circle back to that team member.  You can do it with someone else if you feel more comfortable.
> First, get with HR to determine whether it rises to the level of a CA.  Most things do not for just one incident, but perhaps this does.
> If no CA, tell the team member that you wanted to make sure everything was ok, and that you were concerned that he might have questions about your previous conversation.  Explain that he seemed to have a different perception of what was discussed.  Answer any questions.
> In future, if you think something might warrant a CA, make that part of the STU, and let the team member know that it might turn into a CA.  If you are being direct and honest, there is no reason to worry about being especially kind, or not harsh.  Stick to the facts, and set expectations.


You are assuming that the TM coached is a male ,based on what?


----------



## Captain Orca (Feb 2, 2021)

If it's important regardless of gender and magnitude always have someone you trust present during the talk.  Trust no one.


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 2, 2021)

Planosss said:


> You are assuming that the TM coached is a male ,based on what?


Yeah I wouldn't assume either way here, especially at Target which is pretty diverse with gender, identity and sexual pref. in its teams.


----------



## BullseyeBabe (Feb 2, 2021)

I have a couple of TMs that I won’t talk to without having another TL or ETL with me.


----------



## Captain Orca (Feb 2, 2021)

Not enough info in OP to formulate a hypothesis and offer advice or a solution.  If it's a guy, simply say so.  If its a girl, simply say so.  If you choose to not label by gender, simply say so.  Having a closed door discussion with anyone is a foolish thing to do.  Don't do it.  This is nothing new.


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 2, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> Not enough info in OP to formulate a hypothesis and offer advice or a solution.  If it's a guy, simply say so.  If its a girl, simply say so.  If you choose to not label by gender, simply say so.  Having a closed door discussion with anyone is a foolish thing to do.  Don't do it.  This is nothing new.


The gender isn't at issue here. I don't want to make it one either but here we are. Just my style, I don't want to make it a thing unless it relates to the issue.

When I would get a coaching or needed to talk about something, I usually talked one-on-one in a closed-door meeting, and it felt appropriate. But I take your point that it certainly can be foolish. Like in this case, if I had another talk with this TM who lied about the previous meeting, then I would be a damned fool to give the person a chance to lie about it again.


----------



## Ashfromoldsite (Feb 2, 2021)

NotCynicalYet said:


> I'll keep it as vague as possible to protect identities, but the other day, one of my TMs did something bad enough that I think corrective action should be considered (there is no ambiguity about the bad behavior - it's verifiable). I spoke to them one-on-one and coached them and was especially careful to be kind and understanding and asking if they needed help to do better. I was mindful not to say anything too harsh or to give this person an out.
> 
> I guess my instinct was correct, because they went around me complaining about the meeting, and I had to explain myself to the higher ups. The coaching was characterized in a completely false way, and basically a total 180 from the way I actually conducted myself and coached them.
> 
> ...


Don’t you have to partner with hr before any formal coaching?


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 2, 2021)

Ashfromoldsite said:


> Don’t you have to partner with hr before any formal coaching?


Not to do a performance conversation and write up a "Performance Improvement Plan." But I make sure to communicate with my ETL and HR if it's serious, and let them decide how to handle it. I'm still new to this so I'm sure there are things I don't know yet.


----------



## Captain Orca (Feb 2, 2021)

Do TL's have to do a minimum number of coachings in any given time period?  "Coach", what a word.


----------



## Ashfromoldsite (Feb 2, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> Do TL's have to do a minimum number of coachings in any given time period?  "Coach", what a word.


Because we are a team. Lmao


----------



## happygoth (Feb 2, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> Do TL's have to do a minimum number of coachings in any given time period?  "Coach", what a word.


You know Captain, some team members deserve to have their behavior addressed. Not every team member is a good hard-working person, and not every leader is a ball-busting asshole.

Who cares what they call it? Coach,  reprimand, have a discussion with, whatever. Frankly, my leadership should do more coachings, and make them count.


----------



## Captain Orca (Feb 2, 2021)

hg     no need to tell me that,  of course they need some guidance and an occasional reprimand.  It's just the nomenclature that is irritating.  The team concept is slowly going by the wayside in some stores.  Going back to my question, are there minimums that must be met?


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 2, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> hg     no need to tell me that,  of course they need some guidance and an occasional reprimand.  It's just the nomenclature that is irritating.  The team concept is slowly going by the wayside in some stores.  Going back to my question, are there minimums that must be met?


Short answer is no, but speaking generally about frontline work like we do, leaders with a lot of team members under their supervision should be praising or reprimanding frequently imo, just to reinforce the rules and the culture. If you have a good team, it's nice because that communication is mostly positive, and if you have a bad team, it's a lot of hair-pulling as you are always doing the balancing act of correcting people while still motivating them and finding things to praise them for.

Target approaches this super-softly. I've never seen a supervision environment like this, but Target's method is based in social science. The theory is basically that the ratio of positive reinforcement needs to be about 4:1 to any sort of reprimand for optimal learning and reinforcement. And those reprimands have to be delivered in as positive a way as possible. We have to be far more positive than most would consider realistic in the American culture in which I was raised (the "shit sandwich" was considered forward-thinking). It's new and sometimes difficult for me.


----------



## Yetive (Feb 2, 2021)

Planosss said:


> You are assuming that the TM coached is a male ,based on what?


I am old, and still write with the gender-neutral "he" for one person of unknown gender.  I was making no assumptions.


----------



## NKG (Feb 2, 2021)

I personally had this happen to me. A couple of things you have to do-

1. Go to HR if you need to coach them. Tell them why and what your going to say. 
2. Bring another leader into the room if you need to coach them. Have them take notes of the conversation. 
3. Note the shit out of it in workday. That you had another leader and everything said. 
4. Make sure you let the to know that your conversations are meant to be between you and them. So they are not to go around the store about it. 
5. Include your ETL/SD on any issues that you have with said TM
6. Be a fucking human. Seriously...there's a reason why they don't respect you. Js...


----------



## Rastaman (Feb 2, 2021)

Always have a peer sit in with you when there's a potential for high conflict situation.  Explain the situation to them beforehand,  and tell the TM they're there as a witness.  They don't need to say a word.


----------



## happygoth (Feb 2, 2021)

Sassy Avocado said:


> I personally had this happen to me. A couple of things you have to do-
> 
> 1. Go to HR if you need to coach them. Tell them why and what your going to say.
> 2. Bring another leader into the room if you need to coach them. Have them take notes of the conversation.
> ...


Re: number 6, do you know the OP?


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 2, 2021)

Sassy Avocado said:


> I personally had this happen to me. A couple of things you have to do-
> 
> 1. Go to HR if you need to coach them. Tell them why and what your going to say.
> 2. Bring another leader into the room if you need to coach them. Have them take notes of the conversation.
> ...


Thanks for the helpful advice, especially about letting them know that those conversations stay between them and me and leadership. Also, why did you go off the rails there? Respect is earned and that takes time, especially with the problem children, but I don't see how a person doing the wrong thing and then lying to cover their ass is any solid foundation for attacking my character.


----------



## NKG (Feb 2, 2021)

happygoth said:


> Re: number 6, do you know the OP?


Number 6 and I are drinking buddies


----------



## happygoth (Feb 2, 2021)

Lmao!


----------



## Boxman (Feb 2, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> Not enough info in OP to formulate a hypothesis and offer advice or a solution.  If it's a guy, simply say so.  If its a girl, simply say so.  If you choose to not label by gender, simply say so.  Having a closed door discussion with anyone is a foolish thing to do.  Don't do it.  This is nothing new.


Not true.  I constantly pull my team into an office by myself for coaching.  I have a lot of sensitive team members so I always pull them in the office and tell them to "get the door if they like"

This way if they want privacy and don't want others to know they are coached they can have it.  

If they are uncomfortable in a closed door then they can leave it open.  

I also pull my team off in a closed door setting to recognize them, thank them, reward them with a soda/candy etc.  I do this so my team doesn't associate being "pulled of stage" as bad.  They don't know if it's good or bad.  They also can't spread rumors amongst each other afterwards.  

"Oh so and so got called to the principal's office" is the shit I don't want.  

Just some ideas for you.


----------



## Fluttervale (Feb 2, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> hg     no need to tell me that,  of course they need some guidance and an occasional reprimand.  It's just the nomenclature that is irritating.  The team concept is slowly going by the wayside in some stores.  Going back to my question, are there minimums that must be met?


Minimums depend on the severity of the infraction.  Stores have to make a concerted effort to remain fair across diverse TMs while also enforcing safety and policies.

So you could get a coaching if a guest overheard you say "well this is fucked" but a CCA for going off on a peer and using the word fuck while violating the harassment policy.


----------



## Bufferine (Feb 3, 2021)

We used to have an HR that would bring a third party in every time she did a CA. That way it is not a he said she said situation.


----------



## Berry (Feb 7, 2021)

NotCynicalYet said:


> Short answer is no, but speaking generally about frontline work like we do, leaders with a lot of team members under their supervision should be praising or reprimanding frequently imo, just to reinforce the rules and the culture. If you have a good team, it's nice because that communication is mostly positive, and if you have a bad team, it's a lot of hair-pulling as you are always doing the balancing act of correcting people while still motivating them and finding things to praise them for.
> 
> Target approaches this super-softly. I've never seen a supervision environment like this, but Target's method is based in social science. The theory is basically that the ratio of positive reinforcement needs to be about 4:1 to any sort of reprimand for optimal learning and reinforcement. And those reprimands have to be delivered in as positive a way as possible. We have to be far more positive than most would consider realistic in the American culture in which I was raised (the "shit sandwich" was considered forward-thinking). It's new and sometimes difficult for me.


Seriously? In our store there is no positive reinforcement for anything.


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 7, 2021)

Berry said:


> Seriously? In our store there is no positive reinforcement for anything.


Not surprising tbh. My store is super marshmallow plush toy soft and leadership stresses positivity. If you bark at a TM, you get a talking to. But I'm sure plenty of stores are a little more old-school. My background is more old-school so the official Target way is something I'm taking a while to learn.


----------



## Florida Dawg (Feb 11, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> If it's important regardless of gender and magnitude always have someone you trust present during the talk.  Trust no one.


I trust maybe one or two people at my work because they actually are understanding. A lot of them are high school minded gossipers.


----------



## Florida Dawg (Feb 11, 2021)

NotCynicalYet said:


> Not surprising tbh. My store is super marshmallow plush toy soft and leadership stresses positivity. If you bark at a TM, you get a talking to. But I'm sure plenty of stores are a little more old-school. My background is more old-school so the official Target way is something I'm taking a while to learn.


Yep cus we live in a soft ass PC world, They don’t do shit right and the lazy workers or ones who can’t do right cant admit when things are wrong. Management is full of it on the positivity, They won’t be when they hear someone mad.


----------



## Captain Orca (Feb 11, 2021)

Spend 6 wks at Ft. Jackson South Carolina in the summer.  Lug around an M-16, climb over, under and through barbed wire, live in mud, for hours.  Ain't no soft ass PC shit there.


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 11, 2021)

Captain Orca said:


> Spend 6 wks at Ft. Jackson South Carolina in the summer.  Lug around an M-16, climb over, under and through barbed wire, live in mud, for hours.  Ain't no soft ass PC shit there.


Not gonna say I ever took a course like that, but I did spend a couple winters of 12 hour/6 days a week out busting my hump on a flightline in some serious weather. Definitely gave me a new perspective on what is real hard work and hard-to-get results. As hard as retail is at times, it never gets quite like that.

I'm okay with the world changing though. The benefits of being self-sufficient and tough when necessary are probably outweighed by the downsides of the sheer trauma, and the mental health and productivity upsides of the softer, gentler way of doing things.


----------



## NotCynicalYet (Feb 11, 2021)

Duval Dawg said:


> Yep cus we live in a soft ass PC world, They don’t do shit right and the lazy workers or ones who can’t do right cant admit when things are wrong. Management is full of it on the positivity, They won’t be when they hear someone mad.


Treating lazy people with kid gloves is my greatest pet peeve. They throw a cry or two, and now they're the victim instead of the lazy person. Yeesh. I guess I don't know how to navigate that kind of situation yet.


----------



## Florida Dawg (Feb 11, 2021)

NotCynicalYet said:


> Treating lazy people with kid gloves is my greatest pet peeve. They throw a cry or two, and now they're the victim instead of the lazy person. Yeesh. I guess I don't know how to navigate that kind of situation yet.


Yep it’s bullshit, You will find me as one of the few from My Gen (Gen Z) who isn’t so sensitive and just constantly lazy at work and being a pussy about a lot of things.


----------



## Caliwest (Feb 20, 2021)

Berry said:


> Seriously? In our store there is no positive reinforcement for anything.


Sell a red card and you ll get a walkie call out wahoo from all tl, etl s .....that s it. . It d be nice to get a shout out thank you for backup casheiring so the new tm cashier could get that red card sale cause you just took some of the heat off their line...but..nah.


----------

