# ETL confrontation!!



## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

Today, one of my peers sent me a text accidentally saying that she felt that she was being followed up on because she's black. She said that she thinks that the ETLs (we are ETLs) micromanage her in a way that we don't do to each other.

I confronted her about it and told her that I thought she was making the racism up in her head and she just has a guilty conscience. She gave me examples of times she thought that racial discrimination happened. She gave an example of how a black team member was coached for FFF because she did not saying hello to a leader after that leader kept her waiting outside for 30 minutes before opening the door in the morning... but then a team leader (my team leader) sent confrontational text messages to her about work when he was off the clock (she's black) & he wasn't even coached. She also gave an example of a white team member making a negative comment about the texture of her hair. I thought the examples were kind of funny, to be honest. I basically told her that racism exists in this world, so I'm sure that racism exists in our store, which is true I'm sure. She had also claimed that the black team leader said he thought the STL was racist, but when the STL asked him he was afraid to admit it. She apparently has text messages from him. I don't know. I told her I don't believe her and it's all in her head. She told me that I "was out of line for saying these things because I'm white and I "don't understand her struggle & will never be in her shoes".... I told her that I'm sure that there could be some black people who could be racist against white people in our store too. She said if that were ever brought to her attention that she would address, but she hasn't heard or witnessed anything like it. She mentioned that one of my peers called a black team member a monkey but I'm friends with him and I don't think he's racist. He's Hispanic so I don't think the monkey comment was that bad. I told her I was insulted that she thought racism was going on and that I would only be having a professional relationship with her going forward. I feel like she was wrong for even saying that to anyone, even though she didn't mean for me to see it. I told her that I'm going to tell the STL, and I am (He's on vacation). She was visibly upset when I walked out of her office. I honestly don't feel bad, I feel like it was the truth.

I just want your opinions on the situation.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 24, 2014)

1) TM was coached for not being friendly after having to stand for 30 minutes outside to be let in. Maybe not racist but certainly frelling obnoxious.

2)  Confrontational text messages off the clock with no (as far she knows) coaching. Really bad management at the very least but we seem to be starting a pattern.

3) Negative hair comments. Eh, stupid and offensive but that kind of stuff can be really wearing if you have to put up with it on a constant basis.

4) Calling any TM a monkey who isn't your best friend? Doesn't matter if you don't think he's racist, it's a racial comment unless the person he's talking about is BR and climbing in the steel and even that is pushing it.

5) Telling her that it's all in her head. You're making it so much worse.

6) She isn't wrong.

The best description of white privilege I have ever seen is riding a bike in a tail wind. You're going like a bat out of hell and it feels like you're pumping that bike.
You don't feel the wind so you don't realize just how much help you have.
Your coworker is riding into a headwind and has been doing it all her life. Every gust of wind, she is going to feel it.
You don't see it because it's wind, sometimes something gets knocked over but most of the time, it's going your way.


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## 3LetterDevil (Mar 24, 2014)

She DOES have a point that you "won't understand because you're white", but if she has an issue, she needs to take it to the STL or to HR, NOT you. If ANYONE sent her text messages about work when she was off the clock, they should be coached, regardless of the color of their skin....did she report the text messages? Also, what was the context of the "monkey" comment? Was he climbing something at the time? How did the TM that was called it take it? 

Unfortunately, there are some people who are going to think they are being discriminated against, and see "racism" in every little slight. With people like that, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. We had someone who applied for a job and tried to claim discrimination when she didn't get it, until she found out how diverse our management is. We have just about every color, religion, gender, and sexual persuasion covered.


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## SwitchBlade (Mar 24, 2014)

And OP some of the shit u wrote sounded ignorant as hell.


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## 3LetterDevil (Mar 24, 2014)

Oh, and getting your panties in a bunch because someone makes a "negative" comment about the texture of your hair? Suck it up buttercup, people make "comments" about my hair all the time and I'm white. If I had $1 for every time someone made a comment about my hair, I'd be richer than Gregg!!!


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## Retail Girl (Mar 24, 2014)

I found out through black peers at school the hair thing is really offensive.  There are a lot of comments made, to the point of people expecting to be able to touch a black person's hair simply because they are curious about the texture.  In the end, it isn't up to those of one race to determine what another race should or should not find offensive.


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## Dreamwolf31 (Mar 24, 2014)

Telling her that it's all in her head is not very polite and will probably make things worse. About the monkey thing :  That can be very offensive to some African Americans because the term "porch monkey"was once used as a racial slur.  

When I used to work in a restaurant, I had a fellow waiter who would swipe all the food/debris onto the kitchen floor instead of into a trash can making *huge* messes on the floor.  After many attempts of politely asking him to sweep it into a towel/trash can I got mad and said he made huge messes like a little monkey.  He took it the wrong way and thought I was being racist.  You should tell your friend to apologize to the girl about the monkey comment.  He probably did not realize that what he said could have been taken out of context and might have been racist too her.   She will appreciate the apology and it might ease her fears that people are being racist towards her.


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## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

The comment about the hair was along the lines of "your kids are going to suffer in life if they get that kinky hair you have" then the team member who made the comment (admitted) that she said she "hopes her kids don't get that kinky hair and have pretty straight hair" like her family. I think that team member who made the comment is dating a biracial man. The argument was actually with the ETL HR, who is black, she brought it up to me because i asked her about a text message that I saw that she sent someone.


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## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

She said that she does not want to speak to me personally, professionally, or otherwise, because of what I said..Very immature. No the TM wasn't climbing on anything. He was saying he thinks the TM is "all over the place" like a monkey. He didn't make the comment to the team member, he was overheard. Apparently it was taken negatively, but I don't think it's racist. What is "white privilege"?


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## commiecorvus (Mar 24, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> She said that she does not want to speak to me personally, professionally, or otherwise, because of what I said..Very immature. No the TM wasn't climbing on anything. He was saying he thinks the TM is "all over the place" like a monkey. He didn't make the comment to the team member, he was overheard. Apparently it was taken negatively, but I don't think it's racist. What is "white privilege"?



It's when YOU can tell people racism is all in THEIR head.
Hard to explain if you haven't been paying attention in history class.
Here's some examples.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/michaelblackmon/17-harrowing-examples-of-white-privilege-9hu9


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## 3LetterDevil (Mar 24, 2014)

White privilege is the belief that white people get preferential treatment over people of color, whether it's actual or simply perceptual.


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

@jameskohners 

I suggest that you stay out of it. If it doesn't involve you I would just not get involved. He said she said, you probably will hear all 10 of your stories from different perspectives from 10 different people, theres no way that we can determine what really went on, and what really should be done. If YOU witness something racist, then you have an obligation to report it, but you shouldn't get involved in hearsay.


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## IhaveaDream (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm sorry to ask but OP are you AN IDIOT!!!
Peer: I think im being discriminated against
You: Too bad deal with it


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## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

@Barcode 

I'm not getting involved in that. I'm just insulted that she implied there's racial tension in the store. When I asked her for example, that's how the other situation came up. She also brought up a situation where she thought 2 GSAs were treated differently. GSA 1 (white) didn't understand the cash office and kept messing up so we trained someone else so she didn't have to do it anymore (she didn't get coached),  GSA 2 (black) got coached for all her mistakes and eventually told she had to demote. GSA 1 was in role longer but she saw it as her being treated better than GSA 2. I don't think white people get preferential treatment. It could be unfair and coincidental, but doesn't mean it's racial.


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## redandkhaki (Mar 24, 2014)

i would be pissed if i was coached on not saying hello in the morning but someone else didn't get coached for working off the clock. Can't say if that's racism or not but the way you have handled this situation is ridiculous.


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## redandkhaki (Mar 24, 2014)

that situation you just posted looks racist to me.


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

redandkhaki said:


> that situation you just posted looks racist to me.


You can't determine racism from hearsay. Plus in order to determine racism there would have to be a clear and consistent pattern of a minority group being treated adversely in order to be proven. OR there needs to be evidence that they've made racist remarks or slurs.


Also read closer, saw this involves ETLs... Texting off the clock is okay for ETLs since they are salaried, so depending what EXACTLY happened, it might not be that big of a deal.


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## stateoftarget11 (Mar 24, 2014)

The problem is, in order for her to prove racism she has to show what is called *disparate treatment*.  In other words, if she came in with a white TM and they both did not say hello but only the black TM was coached... that goes in the "paper trail of racism" file.  But it is not enough.... you have to show a pattern of disparate treatment of people who are similarly situated.  So, it can't be "white TM was not written up for being late" but "black TM has written up for pushing 40 carts at a time".  It has to be the same (or very similar) situations and people of one race were treated differently than the others in the same situation.

On the hair comment... honestly, that is (at best) hostile work environment sexual harassment.  It would honestly be easier to prove that than racism.... unless the TM who said it was stupid enough to say something like "I don't like your hair texture that you black people have"

Now, does this mean they are not racist?  No, not at all... the problem is, though, in order to actually have someone with power (read: corporate or the courts) do anything about it, she needs way more than this to meet the burden of proof required.

The one, and only exception to having to get enough solid evidence, would be if the ETL in question was stupid enough to literally admit it.  In other words, he says something like "Hey, I don't like black employees and I make my management decisions with that in mind and always make sure to treat white employee better".  Then it is slam dunk on his ass regardless of how much evidence you have.


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## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

@redandkhaki why do you think the way I handled it is ridiculous? I was just calling her out.


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## Retail Girl (Mar 24, 2014)

White privilege is being able, as a white man, to walk into a store and not have to prove that you aren't up to no good.


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

Retail Girl said:


> White privilege is being able, as a white man, to walk into a store and not have to prove that you aren't up to no good.


If I see a white guy walk in wearing a hoodie and carrying a skateboard, I'm probably going to keep a close eye on him in Elec. Same thing with a black guy.

If I see a white guy walk in wearing a suit and nice shoes, I will probably think nothing of it. Same thing for a black man.

People don't need to be black or white to look sketchy.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 24, 2014)

You might also want to think back to what she was trying to say before you got hyper defensive on her.
Was she trying to tell you that there was racial tension?
If that's the case, it doesn't matter if she can *prove *racism per se, it means the store has issues that need to be addressed probably at the district level.
She was giving you examples (that you laughed off) to prove that people had a right to feel uncomfortable.

It's important that you realize that you don't get to judge what is going to make people uncomfortable.
You handled it badly by judging her.
The work environment needs to be cleared up.
It's not your job but it's going to be someones.


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

@commiecorvus

I think he has a right to say what he thinks. If he doesn't think there is a problem, he shouldn't have to keep quiet about it -- the other ETL brought him into it. Hes well in his right to laugh it off (if he truly thinks the accusations are ridiculous) considering he didn't go out of his way to get into the conversation in the first place, and the other ETL should have brought it to ETL-Hr/HRBP instead.

I agree that there is some underlying issues that will need to be dealt with, hopefully the OP doesn't get involved any more. The other ETL should address their concerns to HRBP or DTL.


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## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

@stateoftarget11 she thinks the 2 GSAs were similarly situated (see above post). I'm scared I'm going to get in trouble for what I said to her, if she reports it. I thought free speech allowed me to tell her what I thought about her discrimination remarks. Now she has requested that I don't talk to her at all. We work together. She's being too sensitive If you ask me.


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## Retail Girl (Mar 24, 2014)

Free speech means the government can't arrest you for what you say...not that there aren't consequences for your words.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 24, 2014)

> Today, one of my peers sent me a text accidentally saying that she felt that she was being followed up on because she's black. She said that she thinks that the ETLs (we are ETLs) micromanage her in a way that we don't do to each other.
> 
> I confronted her about it and told her that I thought she was making the racism up in her head and she just has a guilty conscience.



@Barcode 
She didn't bring it up with him.
He confronted her because of a text that was sent accidentally.
When she tried to defend herself he laughed at her.
Bad all the way round.

I'd agree with you otherwise.


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## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

stateoftarget11 said:


> The problem is, in order for her to prove racism she has to show what is called *disparate treatment*.  In other words, if she came in with a white TM and they both did not say hello but only the black TM was coached... that goes in the "paper trail of racism" file.  But it is not enough.... you have to show a pattern of disparate treatment of people who are similarly situated.  So, it can't be "white TM was not written up for being late" but "black TM has written up for pushing 40 carts at a time".  It has to be the same (or very similar) situations and people of one race were treated differently than the others in the same situation.
> 
> On the hair comment... honestly, that is (at best) hostile work environment sexual harassment.  It would honestly be easier to prove that than racism.... unless the TM who said it was stupid enough to say something like "I don't like your hair texture that you black people have"
> 
> ...



The team member was talking to a black TM and said "your kids are going to suffer in life if they get that kinky hair you have, your hair is worse than (insert black ETL here), and her hair is really bad... hopefully my kids get pretty straight hair like mine" black ETL heard the comment as well as other TMs, who were offended. Either way, I felt that she needed to suck it up and deal with it and I called her out on it.


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## redandkhaki (Mar 24, 2014)

if i was truly offended by something and i was having a conversation about it with someone and they said to me "you know what? Too bad, just suck it up and deal with it!" i would be upset too. Whether what she is feeling is what is true it IS what she is feeling. It's rude to just disregard her feelings and since it is a sensitive subject I feel like it should have been handled better.


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## redeye58 (Mar 24, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> @Barcode I'm just insulted that she implied there's racial tension in the store. When I asked her for example, that's how the other situation came up. She also brought up a situation where she thought 2 GSAs were treated differently. GSA 1 (white) didn't understand the cash office and kept messing up so we trained someone else so she didn't have to do it anymore (she didn't get coached),  GSA 2 (black) got coached for all her mistakes and eventually told she had to demote. GSA 1 was in role longer but she saw it as her being treated better than GSA 2. I don't think white people get preferential treatment. It could be unfair and coincidental, but doesn't mean it's racial.


These ARE the same situation but you DID put them in different contexts:
GSA1 "didn't understand cash office &* kept messing up* so we trained someone else so *she didn't have to do it anymore (she didn't get coached).*
GSA2 "*got coached for all her mistakes & eventually told she had to demote*".
Why was GSA1 who 'kept messing up' without getting coached allowed to be replaced without demotion while GSA2 was 'coached for all her mistakes & eventually told she had to demote?


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## stateoftarget11 (Mar 24, 2014)

commiecorvus, out of curiosity, where did you learn about the concept of white privilege at?


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

redeye58 said:


> jameskohners said:
> 
> 
> > @Barcode I'm just insulted that she implied there's racial tension in the store. When I asked her for example, that's how the other situation came up. She also brought up a situation where she thought 2 GSAs were treated differently. GSA 1 (white) didn't understand the cash office and kept messing up so we trained someone else so she didn't have to do it anymore (she didn't get coached),  GSA 2 (black) got coached for all her mistakes and eventually told she had to demote. GSA 1 was in role longer but she saw it as her being treated better than GSA 2. I don't think white people get preferential treatment. It could be unfair and coincidental, but doesn't mean it's racial.
> ...



GSA1 could have stellar performance in all other areas, and was a top contributor.

GSA2 could be on CCA or have other performance problems in other areas.


@commiecorvus Touché. He does have the right to stand up for what he doesn't think is right though. As long as he hasn't done anything racist, I think he should be okay.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 24, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> The team member was talking to a black TM and said "your kids are going to suffer in life if they get that kinky hair you have, your hair is worse than (insert black ETL here), and her hair is really bad... hopefully my kids get pretty straight hair like mine" black ETL heard the comment as well as other TMs, who were offended.* Either way, I felt that she needed to suck it up and deal with it and I called her out on it.*



Please listen, ff there is one thing I can get across to you in this whole conversation my friend, it's that YOU CAN"T DO THAT!
I understand it's a small thing to you.
I know it seems silly and it seems like something she should get over but man, please take me at my word...
If you can apologize to her for saying it, do so.
Don't ask me why you should, just frelling do it.

It's, how can I put this, like saying a woman is being hard to get along with so it must be her time of the month.
Doesn't seem like a big deal, if you're male but if you have a mom or a SO you know not to make that joke.
I know you didn't *mean* to hurt her feelings or tread on dangerous ground but you did.
Maybe it would be a good idea to do some reading, take some classes.

edit: There's a very long past where of the value of a person was based on how 'good' their hair was. It has spawned a huge industry and caused a lot of problems.
I'm not going to go any deeper but let me tell you it's a serious issue.

But if you can, go say you're sorry.
And never say it again.


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## redeye58 (Mar 24, 2014)

Barcode said:


> redeye58 said:
> 
> 
> > jameskohners said:
> ...


Perhaps, but the only qualifier he mentioned was that GSA1 "had been in role longer". If they are making mistakes in the SAME workcenter, they should've been handled equally. Just because someone has been "in role" longer doesn't excuse them & should, in fact, require them to be held to a higher standard.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 24, 2014)

stateoftarget11 said:


> commiecorvus, out of curiosity, where did you learn about the concept of white privilege at?



Why @stateoftarget11  some of my best friends are ...
Actually that's true but not the story.
I grew up in a family of radicals, my grandfather was a member of the NAACP in the 50's.
He helped integrate a couple of unions in the sixties.
My mom marched in voting rights and peace marches.
So this stuff has been my bread and butter from an early age.
I've also gone to the trouble of educating myself over the years.


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## jameskohners (Mar 24, 2014)

redeye58 said:


> jameskohners said:
> 
> 
> > @Barcode I'm just insulted that she implied there's racial tension in the store. When I asked her for example, that's how the other situation came up. She also brought up a situation where she thought 2 GSAs were treated differently. GSA 1 (white) didn't understand the cash office and kept messing up so we trained someone else so she didn't have to do it anymore (she didn't get coached),  GSA 2 (black) got coached for all her mistakes and eventually told she had to demote. GSA 1 was in role longer but she saw it as her being treated better than GSA 2. I don't think white people get preferential treatment. It could be unfair and coincidental, but doesn't mean it's racial.
> ...






Barcode said:


> redeye58 said:
> 
> 
> > jameskohners said:
> ...




To be honest, GSA 1 is a favorite of leadership and her TLs. GSA 2 was just too aggressive, didn't like her personality as much. Would do anything to help GSA 1. She lost her keys, ETL HR wanted her to go on CCA, we fought about that. I didn't want GSA 1 to have a record. According to ETL-HR, GSA 2 was new so mistakes were expected and training was needed, according to HR seasoned GSA 1 should've definitely been treated the same since her knowledge level should've been higher than GSA 2 (according to HR). I disagree.


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

redeye58 said:


> Barcode said:
> 
> 
> > redeye58 said:
> ...



Yes that is true, but it also doesn't reflect upon their overall job performance. They are both deficient in Cash Office, but we don't know about any other deficiencies they may each have.

@jameskohners Interesting. Does GSA #2's personality have anything to do with their performance or job execution? I'm guessing they don't rub off too well on people.


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## redeye58 (Mar 24, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> The team member was talking to a black TM and said "your kids are going to suffer in life if they get that kinky hair you have, your hair is worse than (insert black ETL here), and her hair is really bad... hopefully my kids get pretty straight hair like mine" black ETL heard the comment as well as other TMs, *who were offended*. Either way,* I felt that she needed to suck it up and deal with it and I called her out on it*.


Really? And you told her you were also going to the STL about your convo with her because YOU felt insulted about her perceptions?
Wow.
Freakin' clueless.....


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

@redeye58 
The Hair thing doesn't really come off as racist as much as it does rude and offensive.


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## redeye58 (Mar 24, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> To be honest, *GSA 1 is a favorite of leadership and her TLs*. GSA 2 was* just too aggressive, didn't like her personality as much*. *Would do anything to help GSA 1*. She* lost her keys, ETL HR wanted her to go on CCA*, we fought about that. I *didn't want GSA 1 to have a record*. According to ETL-HR, *GSA 2 was new so mistakes were expected and training was needed*, according to HR seasoned GSA 1 should've definitely been treated the same since her knowledge level should've been higher than GSA 2 (according to HR). I disagree.


Def favoritism.
If I was starting out in a new position, coached for mistakes despite the fact I was new, then told to demote while watching someone who was a leadership pet do the same WITHOUT getting coaching (even after losing keys!), I'd be pissed too.


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

redeye58 said:


> jameskohners said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, *GSA 1 is a favorite of leadership and her TLs*. GSA 2 was* just too aggressive, didn't like her personality as much*. *Would do anything to help GSA 1*. She* lost her keys, ETL HR wanted her to go on CCA*, we fought about that. I *didn't want GSA 1 to have a record*. According to ETL-HR, *GSA 2 was new so mistakes were expected and training was needed*, according to HR seasoned GSA 1 should've definitely been treated the same since her knowledge level should've been higher than GSA 2 (according to HR). I disagree.
> ...


Yes it is indeed favoritism.

Playing devils advocate here though. What if GSA1 has a very friendly and outgoing aura and they click well with their team and the guests. GSA 2 is aggressive and clashes constantly with their team, and rubs off the wrong way on guests. Is it so wrong to play favorites sometimes? Guest Service is a very interpersonal workcenter which requires the right personality for the job.


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## redeye58 (Mar 24, 2014)

No problem playing favs until one TM is getting coached while the other is getting passes.
GSA1 may be FFF & a dream TM but CO mistakes AND losing a set of keys w/o a coaching?
It's a problem.


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## Barcode (Mar 24, 2014)

redeye58 said:


> No problem playing favs until one TM is getting coached while the other is getting passes.
> GSA1 may be FFF & a dream TM but CO mistakes AND losing a set of keys w/o a coaching?
> It's a problem.



Hm yeah that is a problem depending on the exact circumstances.

Granted it depends which set of keys were lost, I don't think it is of the same severity as a ETL/SRTL losing building keys which is Auto-Final.

CO Mistakes depends on which kind of mistakes also. I forgot to put a money tray in the vault once (was still locked in the room though), only had a small amount of money and I got a Counselling (Written CCA) for it (granted the ETL that discovered it was known for being a hardass). So it is possible.

In all honesty I think this whole thing reeks, and the OP should stay out of it.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2014)

I think everyone is racist and has prejudice on some level.  Before you go on the offensive with that comment, let me explain.  Most people judge you by what you look like.  Since the majority of people can see with their eyes, they judge anyone and everyone on their appearance.  I'm not saying it's right or should be accepted but it's a flaw of humanity.  People make judgments based on appearances.  Some people are hardcore when it comes to their prejudices while others not so much.  I believe most people stereotype while the hardcore ones act on their hatred and prejudices. 
I have judged people on their appearances and most of the time I'm wrong.  You can't judge people off a first impression or what they look like.  You have to give people a chance.  However, it's conflicting because anyone can do anything.  If I saw someone in a hoodie and if they looked suspicious, I would be on my guard. 
At the end of the day, I try to think of it like Flight of the Conchords in which everyone should be treated like a person.


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## stateoftarget11 (Mar 25, 2014)

commiecorvus said:


> stateoftarget11 said:
> 
> 
> > commiecorvus, out of curiosity, where did you learn about the concept of white privilege at?
> ...



I only ask because it is more of an advanced concept that - outside of college or civil rights groups - most laypeople are not familiar with.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2014)

Aren't terms like colored people, people of color, and African-American inaccurate and possibly offensive?  Black and white aren't technically colors.  With that being said, how can someone that is not a color be a person of color?  And what about the term African-American?  I am a Caucasian and most of my ancestry is from Europe mainly England, Ireland, and Germany.  Should I be called a European-American?  Not being cute or trying to start anything.  Just posing questions for people to think about. 

I think white privilege is more myth than fact.  For me personally, I would say that white privilege might help in cases when it comes to the law but that's pretty much it.  It did not help me in college.  I believe I only got 1 scholarship and that was some silly 500 dollar one for being in some goofy Christian organization.  Since I'm a straight male WASP, I wasn't able to get a scholarship based on what I looked like or where I came from.  If you are a black person or a Native American or even Jewish, you can get scholarships.  But not me.  Poor baby.  Then again, I'm white so my opinion on race means nothing because I have never suffered from anything even though I've been poor my whole life.  Aren't there more poor white people than poor minorities in America?  Just sayin'.  And in the 1700s and 1800s, weren't slaves owned by *rich* white males in America? 

And when I drive, I never expect to have a cop to take it easy on me  because I'm white.  You know why?  Because cops have to make quotas to get bonuses and to keep their jobs.  They will do whatever it takes to write you a ticket and/or haul your butt to jail. 

And lastly, when it comes to crime and race, aren't most homicides caused by white guys?  Serial killers?  Domestic terrorists?  Anyone can do anything in my opinion.


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## RedDog (Mar 25, 2014)

The very fact you felt the need to tell her she is wrong and everything is fine, tells me something may be brewing in your store.  That you felt compelled to go to through each example and toss cold water on it is odd.  Why would you not just tell her to speak to her HR?  Clearly you are not her, and all you have to go on is a few examples she gave you so why would you try and tell her she is wrong?  You have to know that will just make matters worse.


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## willthisbeonthetest (Mar 25, 2014)

Is the OP for real?!  I can't imagine any ETL -- at least in my store -- acting, thinking, speaking the way all of the people in this scenario are purported to have acted.

No ETL would let a TM stand outside for 30 minutes, no one would ever get coached for not saying 'hello' to an ETL (maybe for insubordination if they passively aggressively refused a task), no ETL would EVER DARE call a team member a 'monkey' regardless of the circumstances.  And there would certainly be no discussion among TM, TL and ETL about coaching team members unless it was need to know.

And IF any of this had happened, the integrity hotline would be lit up like a Christmas tree.

I doubt the veracity of any of this story.  It just wouldn't fly in my store or my district.


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## snoboy8999 (Mar 25, 2014)

I am absolutely shocked that there are people who are denying white privilege exists. And I'm a white guy.


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## Barcode (Mar 25, 2014)

I hate the term white privilege. Nothing but reverse discrimination.


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## snoboy8999 (Mar 25, 2014)

Discriminated on because you are white, and therefore in the majority, and therefore privileged?


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## snoboy8999 (Mar 25, 2014)

Unless you're in an area where being Caucasian is the minority, but still. It completely exists and we should as a company strive to be more understanding with how things are perceived, as well as being more multiculturally competent.


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## sher (Mar 25, 2014)

If they said her hair was nappy, or that it wasn't professional because it's nappy/kinky/afro-textured, that's racism. Sure other people hear negative comments on their hair, but a comment that's specifically about a hair texture that's rare for anyone who isn't black is a form of racism. It's not the worst thing ever heard, though. Many black people with a self-hate problem don't like natural hair (unrelaxed hair. We refer to it as such because relaxers are more common). 

Being hispanic doesn't make the monkey comment not bad. And you're a little bit racist for thinking that being not white excused that person for the comment. He may not be racist and wasn't thinking of the history behind it, but he's not excused because of his ethnicity.

Also, a lot of racism isn't overt at all. With institutionalized racism, people don't realize they're doing it because it's that heavily ingrained in them. The same is true for misogyny. One of my ETLs saying to me (as a guest was giving a positive comment about my service) "oh you got your cousin to say something nice!" is institutionalized racism. The ap guy keeping track of me for like months when I started was probably institutionalized racism. Dude was always hovering around the fitting room when I was in there and such. It was suuper ridiculous. Little racist things happen that go unnoticed all the time because they're just ingrained in society.


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## sher (Mar 25, 2014)

Alsooo, I present to you Everyone's a Little Bit Racist



Only good thing to come from Avenue Q. Actually, I changed my mind, The Internet is for Porn is also dope.

I'm not gonna get into any conversations on white privilege. I'm done, here. Staying out of internet debates is my only 2014 resolution.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 25, 2014)

I love Avenue Q.


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## jameskohners (Mar 25, 2014)

I had to escape from bosnia to come to this country because of my religion. This so called Racism in America is nothing compared to that.


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## jameskohners (Mar 25, 2014)

To be honest, when I see black people I don't see color. I was not thinking about the fact that she was black when I confronted her and said what I said. I honestly think I would've been racist if I had to think about the fact that she was black when I said those things that would be discrimination.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 25, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> I had to escape from bosnia to come to this country because of my religion. This so called Racism in America is nothing compared to that.



Granted your experiences are on a different level than what many people have experienced.
My wife's stepfather was in the camps during the Holocaust and when the Russians opened the camp they sent them to Siberia.
He didn't always understand why people complained about certain things.
But he didn't ever allow anyone to be treated badly around him and he was a badass when it came down to protecting the little guy.
If someone felt like they were being picked on he stopped it.
Nobody got in his way.

Be the guy who protects, not the one who stands on the sidelines.


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## sher (Mar 25, 2014)

Ignoring things because they aren't as bad as the other thing is silly and counterproductive. And it's how we ended up with these little bits of racism that go unrecognized. "Well, at least it wasn't a lynching. It was just a brick through the window!"

You have to see color. America is not "post-racial" and the whole notion is ridiculous. I'm black. It affects my experiences, my perception, my life. Maybe some day it won't, but in 2014, it does. In 2014, to not see color is to ignore the differences in treatment based on race. In 2014, racism is still alive and well. And for a black woman, you're (not you, me and your coworker) affected by both institutionalized racism and sexism.

But this time, I'm really leaving. I'm failing at my only resolution.


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## Retail Girl (Mar 25, 2014)

White privilege is knowing that people won't be coming up to guest service to complain about too many of "my kind" working in this store.


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## Hardlinesmaster (Mar 25, 2014)

Then the guest see this:


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## snoboy8999 (Mar 25, 2014)

I agree with sher about the seeing color part.


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## spoilers (Mar 25, 2014)

The thing that bothers me is that, in general, you should have empathized with her. If she was just venting, that's one thing, but to come to you with legitimate concerns and examples (especially as an ETL) says that this is a little more than a minor frustration. I just don't understand how it's so difficult for people to empathize, or even say "wow I can't even imagine how frustrating that is, I'm sorry you feel that way, is there anything I can do."
Negating someone's feelings by telling them they're just imagining things or whatnot is A) an easy way out, B) doesn't actually do anything to solve the problem (WHICH, as a peer, friend, and leader should be your ultimate goal), and C) is just a dick move
It's like telling someone with chronic depression "oh you're just being dramatic cheer up"...that's not how it works.
As for thinking the hair comment is silly, it would be like me walking up to a random dude and saying "I hope your children don't inherit those man boobs/that big ass nose/your hairy back"...even if it wasn't intended as a racial comment, it's just plain rude to point out someone's flaws, or even something you don't find attractive.

edited for context and spelling


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## Barcode (Mar 25, 2014)

Retail Girl said:


> White privilege is knowing that people won't be coming up to guest service to complain about too many of "my kind" working in this store.



Oh believe me, there are a lot of minority groups who are just as racist if not more racist towards whites than anyone may ever be towards them. You just may not hear it firsthand.


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## AssetsProtection (Mar 25, 2014)

This topic tho...


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## jameskohners (Mar 25, 2014)

Barcode said:


> Retail Girl said:
> 
> 
> > White privilege is knowing that people won't be coming up to guest service to complain about too many of "my kind" working in this store.
> ...



Some argue that black people can't be racist based on the fact that the definition of racism says that racism is directed towards an oppressed race, and white people aren't considered to be "oppressed".


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2014)

Anyone can have prejudice.  People judge everyday.  I laugh at people that say minorities can't be racist because they've been victims of it.  Malcolm X was one of the most racist activists during the Civil Rights movement but even he was able to change his heart.  I'm not a fan of Malcolm X but he hated white people mainly because of what happened to his father but he changed his ways by preaching peace and tolerance rather than hatred and force.  Now if only Al Sharpton could change.  And when it comes to racism, isn't a little racist to automatically ask a minority for their opinion or view on race matters and issues?  If that person was white, no one would be asking for an opinion.  Don't even get me started on affirmative action.  Affirmative action is straight up racism.  It basically says white people never suffer and have been born with wealth and riches.  It also says that minorities are stupid and need help because of what they look like.  It's like no matter what a minority does, they aren't good enough so they need help.  That is incredibly racist.  Shouldn't people be allowed a chance to do things on their own?


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## commiecorvus (Mar 25, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> Barcode said:
> 
> 
> > Retail Girl said:
> ...



Yep, You can dislike people of another race and not want your kids to marry them etc. but until you can keep them from voting and have institutionalized racial discrimination than it isn't racism.







Unfortunately, in the case of the young woman who was trying to talk to the OP she needed sympathy and support.


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## snoboy8999 (Mar 25, 2014)

yep. prejudice =/ racism


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## Meli4Target (Mar 25, 2014)

jameskohners said:


> I had to escape from bosnia to come to this country because of my religion. This so called Racism in America is nothing compared to that.


Ive had to escape Kosovo Because of my race & religion. We ended up taking refuge in Macedonia & eventually coming to the US. I know your pain.


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## greeneggsandham (Mar 25, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> Anyone can have prejudice.  People judge everyday.  I laugh at people that say minorities can't be racist because they've been victims of it.  Malcolm X was one of the most racist activists during the Civil Rights movement but even he was able to change his heart.  I'm not a fan of Malcolm X but he hated white people mainly because of what happened to his father but he changed his ways by preaching peace and tolerance rather than hatred and force.  Now if only Al Sharpton could change.  And when it comes to racism, isn't a little racist to automatically ask a minority for their opinion or view on race matters and issues?  If that person was white, no one would be asking for an opinion.  Don't even get me started on affirmative action.  Affirmative action is straight up racism.  It basically says white people never suffer and have been born with wealth and riches.  It also says that minorities are stupid and need help because of what they look like.  It's like no matter what a minority does, they aren't good enough so they need help.  That is incredibly racist.  Shouldn't people be allowed a chance to do things on their own?



Depends on how you approach the situation. Asking a black person why black people like fried chicken and watermelon (a stereotype) is very different than asking questions to gain insight on diversity and inclusion. Diversity and inclusion, as well as cultural competence is a necessary skill for leaders-  not just for white people, but for everybody. Actually, asking a minority to whom the circumstance applies would mean that you're interested in becoming culturally competent, not racist. White people can't speak to minority issues, just like black people (most likely) cannot speak to the holocaust. Who better to give insight than those directly involved? Chances are that if OP had life experience with diversity and.....hell even one conversation about racial issues with a black person he would've known that he was dead wrong in this situation and it would've ended badly. He would've also known how to navigate the situation more appropriately. There are just things that should not be said regarding race, and someone with experience with black people would know.

What if that was a team member and not a peer that he said that stuff too? I can't even begin to imagine the liability that Target would face if the TM complained. I Imagine the press headline would be something like: "Target manager tells black employee that racism is all in her head" this would be a PR nightmare. This was inappropriately handled on all fronts.

Affirmative action exists due to the disadvantage that minority races have experienced. Some organizations want diversity to be represented. Affirmative Action is usually enforced in institutions that are not diverse, some organizations are trying to avoid segregation to show that America is moving forward and Affirmative Action helps them measure how they are doing. I definitely agree that not all white people are privileged, however historically statistics show that minorities have been disadvantaged in much higher proportion to whites.

The example with the GSA is........... interesting. @Barcode presented the idea of personality , team perception, and performance in all other areas as a qualifier for preferential treatment. Unfortunately, that explanation would not hold up in court; however, the discrepancy in coaching documentation would be hard evidence against spot. If the store does have racial tension, the team would be more receptive to GSA 1, regardless of GSA 2's personality.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 25, 2014)

Very cogent and well written post @greeneggsandham


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## Barcode (Mar 26, 2014)

greeneggsandham said:


> Jackswastedlife99 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone can have prejudice.  People judge everyday.  I laugh at people that say minorities can't be racist because they've been victims of it.  Malcolm X was one of the most racist activists during the Civil Rights movement but even he was able to change his heart.  I'm not a fan of Malcolm X but he hated white people mainly because of what happened to his father but he changed his ways by preaching peace and tolerance rather than hatred and force.  Now if only Al Sharpton could change.  And when it comes to racism, isn't a little racist to automatically ask a minority for their opinion or view on race matters and issues?  If that person was white, no one would be asking for an opinion.  Don't even get me started on affirmative action.  Affirmative action is straight up racism.  It basically says white people never suffer and have been born with wealth and riches.  It also says that minorities are stupid and need help because of what they look like.  It's like no matter what a minority does, they aren't good enough so they need help.  That is incredibly racist.  Shouldn't people be allowed a chance to do things on their own?
> ...



Keeping your position isn't preferential treatment if you perform better overall than the other GSA who lost their position.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2014)

I've just never understood the whole diversity over talent argument.  It's a very weak one if you ask me.  Affirmative action is straight up racism and discrimination.  The NFL is a fine example of that.  They have the Rooney rule which means an NFL team is forced to interview a minority candidate before making a final decision.  That is completely racist toward minorities and whites.  For example, let's say that the Browns were 100 percent without a doubt that they were going to hire a coach that they liked and wanted.  Guess what the coach is white.  Oh no, they can't hire the guy without having a bogus interview with a minority candidate.  It's a waste of time and disgrace for the minority candidate to even participate in the interview when there is no chance that the Browns will hire him since they have already made their minds up on a particular candidate.  Why put that minority candidate through that crap?  Why make the white candidate wait through the hiring process because some people a long time ago thought that certain people needed a helping hand because they have been prejudged without even given a say or chance.  Affirmative action does not help minorities.  It makes people especially white people resent them and some minorities because some minorities don't fit the affirmative action demographic.  Yes, it's true.  And yeah I'm an evil white guy so my opinion on this means nothing.  But hey this is America.  I am entitled to this opinion. 

And again, I'm a poor white straight male from a protestant upbringing.  I can't get any help because I've already been prejudged just like minorities are.  You can call me a cry baby or that I have white privilege.  Whatever.  If I'm going to have white privilege, I want to at least be middle class.


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## greeneggsandham (Mar 26, 2014)

Jackswastedlif said:


> I've just never understood the whole diversity over talent argument.  It's a very weak one if you ask me.  Affirmative action is straight up racism and discrimination.  The NFL is a fine example of that.  They have the Rooney rule which means an NFL team is forced to interview a minority candidate before making a final decision.  That is completely racist toward minorities and whites.  For example, let's say that the Browns were 100 percent without a doubt that they were going to hire a coach that they liked and wanted.  Guess what the coach is white.  Oh no, they can't hire the guy without having a bogus interview with a minority candidate.  It's a waste of time and disgrace for the minority candidate to even participate in the interview when there is no chance that the Browns will hire him since they have already made their minds up on a particular candidate.  Why put that minority candidate through that crap?  Why make the white candidate wait through the hiring process because some people a long time ago thought that certain people needed a helping hand because they have been prejudged without even given a say or chance.  Affirmative action does not help minorities.  It makes people especially white people resent them and some minorities because some minorities don't fit the affirmative action demographic.  Yes, it's true.  And yeah I'm an evil white guy so my opinion on this means nothing.  But hey this is America.  I am entitled to this opinion.
> 
> And again, I'm a poor white straight male from a protestant upbringing.  I can't get any help because I've already been prejudged just like minorities are.  You can call me a cry baby or that I have white privilege.  Whatever.  If I'm going to have white privilege, I want to at least be middle class.



Again, racism is towards an oppressed race, white people ate not oppressed.

@Barcode not documenting poor performance because you like someone better , with the other patterns given in this example with racial gaps would be considered discrimination. You ate entitled to your opinion; however, the facts tell a much different story. The courts care about facts, not subjective opinions about personality and team perception. If she's messing up in the c/o, her performance is not stellar. GSA 2 has been given more responsibility than GSA 1 on order to make her look bad. If GSA 2 is messing up in the c/o, she should be removed from having that responsibility as well. GSA 1 should have been coached, even if they removed her from the c/o. It looks like they kept GSA 2 in the c/o so they could coach her as she failed. If both GSAs are failing, both need to be coached. I have substantial HR knowledge, and this would NEVER fly in court, ever. EEOC would come in and request documents, notice the Discrepancy and would interview the team and leadership.... it would be very very bad


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## greydot (Mar 26, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> I've just never understood the whole diversity over talent argument.  It's a very weak one if you ask me.  Affirmative action is straight up racism and discrimination.  The NFL is a fine example of that.  They have the Rooney rule which means an NFL team is forced to interview a minority candidate before making a final decision.  That is completely racist toward minorities and whites.  For example, let's say that the Browns were 100 percent without a doubt that they were going to hire a coach that they liked and wanted.  Guess what the coach is white.  Oh no, they can't hire the guy without having a bogus interview with a minority candidate.  It's a waste of time and disgrace for the minority candidate to even participate in the interview when there is no chance that the Browns will hire him since they have already made their minds up on a particular candidate.  Why put that minority candidate through that crap?  Why make the white candidate wait through the hiring process because some people a long time ago thought that certain people needed a helping hand because they have been prejudged without even given a say or chance.  Affirmative action does not help minorities.  It makes people especially white people resent them and some minorities because some minorities don't fit the affirmative action demographic.  Yes, it's true.  And yeah I'm an evil white guy so my opinion on this means nothing.  But hey this is America.  I am entitled to this opinion.
> 
> And again, I'm a poor white straight male from a protestant upbringing.  I can't get any help because I've already been prejudged just like minorities are.  You can call me a cry baby or that I have white privilege.  Whatever.  If I'm going to have white privilege, I want to at least be middle class.



If they removed affirmative action you would without a doubt, see places "white out".   I think there's a very good interview somewhere with Clarence Thomas, or someone of that stature, about what affirmative action is, and what it did for them, and it's place in society. Society is not yet equal. In fact, there are many places re-segregating. City public schools are a big canary in the coal mine on this.  Many schools in minority areas are abysmal - that doesn't mean that there aren't poor white schools, but they are not poor via institutionalized racism. Go to a large rich city. Check out the public schools. Chances are that many of the white population that would geographically go there, have self segregated into private schools. That doesnt mean they are racist, but institutionally, that school remains poor because it is majority minority. There is a value in having a diverse society. White privilege isn't about saying, "oh, you're white? Your life is awesome, stfu!".  Its the acknowledgement that there are automatic buffers in society that by birth do not apply to you. Even if someone is poor, or dresses or acts in a certain way, at the end of the day, you can't go home, and take your blackness off. I mean come on, how many of you have a black tl or etl that someone will walk right past, looking for " the manager ". We used to have a white electronics tm, with a black tl, and this happened all the time. Its things like that, that permeate every pore of society.


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## Barcode (Mar 26, 2014)

greeneggsandham said:


> Jackswastedlif said:
> 
> 
> > I've just never understood the whole diversity over talent argument.  It's a very weak one if you ask me.  Affirmative action is straight up racism and discrimination.  The NFL is a fine example of that.  They have the Rooney rule which means an NFL team is forced to interview a minority candidate before making a final decision.  That is completely racist toward minorities and whites.  For example, let's say that the Browns were 100 percent without a doubt that they were going to hire a coach that they liked and wanted.  Guess what the coach is white.  Oh no, they can't hire the guy without having a bogus interview with a minority candidate.  It's a waste of time and disgrace for the minority candidate to even participate in the interview when there is no chance that the Browns will hire him since they have already made their minds up on a particular candidate.  Why put that minority candidate through that crap?  Why make the white candidate wait through the hiring process because some people a long time ago thought that certain people needed a helping hand because they have been prejudged without even given a say or chance.  Affirmative action does not help minorities.  It makes people especially white people resent them and some minorities because some minorities don't fit the affirmative action demographic.  Yes, it's true.  And yeah I'm an evil white guy so my opinion on this means nothing.  But hey this is America.  I am entitled to this opinion.
> ...



Who says gsa1 wasn't verbally coached? You don't need to write someone up for every little thing. We don't know how many times GSA 1 and 2 were talked to, or even possible circumstances where Cca would have been inappropriate in GSA 1s circumstance. It will be difficult to prove discrimination if it's a documented performance issue. I repeat, lack of write up does not mean GSA 1 was given a free pass, they were probably formally coached just no written Cca.

The op says GSA 2 was "aggressive", a trait that doesn't bode well as a GSA.


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## Barcode (Mar 26, 2014)

@greydot There are a lot of reasons why public schools in big cities have more minority children and the well to do go to private schools. There are cultural differences vs black and whites, which statistically has proven we have different family structure. Black families are the highest % of single mother run families in the country, the men knock them up then leave, which in many cases leads to poverty and reliance on public assistance. I saw (percentage wise) far more black mothers coming through my old Target using WIC and EBT than any other group. 

There are 4.8% of blacks in prison vs 1.9% Hispanics and .9% whites. Is it because of discrimination (in sure it might happen here and there) or is there a cultural problem? Why statistically do black men leave their women more than any other race?

I'm trying to back up everything I say with statistics, so please refrain from calling me racist. I've had the privilege of being friends with people of many minority groups and know statistics don't speak for EVERYONE.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 26, 2014)

Barcode said:


> @greydot There are a lot of reasons why public schools in big cities have more minority children and the well to do go to private schools. There are cultural differences vs black and whites, which statistically has proven we have different family structure. Black families are the highest % of single mother run families in the country, the men knock them up then leave, which in many cases leads to poverty and reliance on public assistance. I saw (percentage wise) far more black mothers coming through my old Target using WIC and EBT than any other group.
> 
> There are 4.8% of blacks in prison vs 1.9% Hispanics and .9% whites. Is it because of discrimination (in sure it might happen here and there) or is there a cultural problem? Why statistically do black men leave their women more than any other race?
> 
> I'm trying to back up everything I say with statistics, so please refrain from calling me racist. I've had the privilege of being friends with people of many minority groups and know statistics don't speak for EVERYONE.



I think the thread is quickly getting derailed here but I can address a couple of points here.
My wife taught in an urban school for more than 15 years.
She would be quick to tell you that in the sixties the town divided up creating the districts (also known as white flight).
As to the difference in 'family structure', sure she had tons of kids whose parents work 3 jobs just to pay the bills so they can't read to their kids or help them with their homework.
The numbers that they use for single parent families are a bit skewed because they don't count cohabiting couples which from what I understand would drop the number down quite a bit.
As to public assistance, nationally the primary group on assistance are white.

The higher number of black men in prison may have something to do with the way laws are enforced.
Interesting that crack cocaine for years had guaranteed prison sentences while powder did not.
One is largely a black crime the other white.
They've proven that black men arrested for first time marijuana possession have a higher chance of doing time than a white man.

Percentages do not tell the entire story.


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## Dreamwolf31 (Mar 26, 2014)

Husband showed this to me a few weeks ago.  It's an extremely touching video and shows that there really is still racism.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 26, 2014)

Sorry, gotta repeat this one more time.
*
 Prejudice is not racism.*


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2014)

Bu explain to me why I was basically SOL when it came to scholarships?  Why was a minority more deserving and needing of help than me?  That is the thing that annoys me.  This myth that every white person has a great life and never suffers and does nor need help.  That is completely racist and false.  Minorities can be just as racist as white people.  I laugh and smirk when people say otherwise.  If a black person hates a person because they are white, that is straight up racism.  Please don't make excuses.  I was a white guy that wasn't good at sports so I was basically screwed when it came to scholarships.  If I had been a minority of some sort, my college experience would have been a lot cheaper.  Thank you.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 26, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> Bu explain to me why I was basically SOL when it came to scholarships?  Why was a minority more deserving and needing of help than me?  That is the thing that annoys me.  This myth that every white person has a great life and never suffers and does nor need help.  That is completely racist and false.  Minorities can be just as racist as white people.  I laugh and smirk when people say otherwise.  If a black person hates a person because they are white, that is straight up racism.  Please don't make excuses.  I was a white guy that wasn't good at sports so I was basically screwed when it came to scholarships.  If I had been a minority of some sort, my college experience would have been a lot cheaper.  Thank you.



Once again, the thread is getting hijacked on subjects that have nothing to do with the original point but I'll take a shot at it.

As a teacher my wife worked hard to find scholarships for her better kids.
I promise they were every bit as SOL as you were if not more so.
You know what the most common scholarship is for black students?
Sports, so if you can't run, jump or throw a ball, you are screwed.

When it comes to college acceptance you know what the real Affirmative Action is for college acceptance?
It's legacy.  
If your daddy went to the school you're guaranteed a spot no matter how average your grades were.
That's how privileged people keep the system going.

The fact is you have more in common with poor black people than you do with the rich.
This stuff is being used to divide us and we need to see that.


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## redeye58 (Mar 26, 2014)

Barcode said:


> Who says gsa1 wasn't verbally coached? You don't need to write someone up for every little thing. We don't know how many times GSA 1 and 2 were talked to, or even possible circumstances where Cca would have been inappropriate in GSA 1s circumstance. It will be difficult to prove discrimination if it's a documented performance issue. I repeat, lack of write up does not mean GSA 1 was given a free pass, they were probably formally coached just no written Cca.
> 
> The op says GSA 2 was "aggressive", a trait that doesn't bode well as a GSA.


The point of this situation is that GSA1 was pulled out of CO else she would've made enough mistakes that corrective action would've been inevitable. OP even stated that he fought AGAINST her getting a coaching.
GSA2 wasn't given that option. She was coached & told that she'd be demoted. If she'd been given the same opp as GSA1 (removal w/o coaching or demotion), she could've demonstrated that she was up for the challenge of GSA.
As to an "aggressive" trait, depending on who you talk to it can be purely subjective. It's considered a preferred trait for leadership.


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## Barcode (Mar 26, 2014)

redeye58 said:


> Barcode said:
> 
> 
> > Who says gsa1 wasn't verbally coached? You don't need to write someone up for every little thing. We don't know how many times GSA 1 and 2 were talked to, or even possible circumstances where Cca would have been inappropriate in GSA 1s circumstance. It will be difficult to prove discrimination if it's a documented performance issue. I repeat, lack of write up does not mean GSA 1 was given a free pass, they were probably formally coached just no written Cca.
> ...



Someone who is aggressive usually does not relate well to others. An important trait for working leadership positions at Target.

Also he never said he didn't want GSA1 to be coached, he just said he didn't want GSA1 to have a record -- totally different things. What he meant was he didn't want GSA1 getting Corrective Action which goes on your record. Doesn't mean they weren't coached for their shortcomings. Also depending on exact circumstances Corrective Action might not even be appropriate.

I'd like to remind everyone how hypothetical all of this is, its really impossible to even THINK this is racism from the small amount of proof that we have. The whole GSA situation COULD be an example of racism, but there is just as much reason that it isn't. Who knows.


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## daninnj (Mar 26, 2014)

stateoftarget11 said:


> The problem is, in order for her to prove racism she has to show what is called *disparate treatment*.  In other words, if she came in with a white TM and they both did not say hello but only the black TM was coached... that goes in the "paper trail of racism" file.  But it is not enough.... you have to show a pattern of disparate treatment of people who are similarly situated.  So, it can't be "white TM was not written up for being late" but "black TM has written up for pushing 40 carts at a time".  It has to be the same (or very similar) situations and people of one race were treated differently than the others in the same situation.



This is correct and reminds me of the EEOC case against Target a decade ago where four black applicants for ETL positions were denied interviews and/or positions. You can read the six-page document [url=news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/target/eeoctarget020802cmp.pdf‎]here[/URL]. One black woman didn't get an interview when she submitted her resume even after she called. She submitted the same resume with a white-sounding name and removed reference to a black sorority, and had a white person call and that person immediately got an interview. A black man got higher scores than his white counterparts but did not get an interview while the whites did. For more information on court cases, see here.  



Barcode said:


> If I see a white guy walk in wearing a hoodie and carrying a skateboard, I'm probably going to keep a close eye on him in Elec. Same thing with a black guy.
> 
> If I see a white guy walk in wearing a suit and nice shoes, I will probably think nothing of it. Same thing for a black man.



That's not always the case with everyone, most people rather. The APA very recently published a study where black boys are seen as older and less-childlike than white boys. As per the abstract: "We find converging evidence that Black boys are seen as older and less innocent and that they prompt a less essential conception of childhood than do their White same-age peers. Further, our findings demonstrate that the Black/ape association predicted actual racial disparities in police violence toward children. These data represent the first attitude/behavior matching of its kind in a policing context. Taken together, this research
suggests that dehumanization is a uniquely dangerous intergroup attitude, that intergroup perception of
children is underexplored, and that both topics should be research priorities." The article is in full here.

I'm a white boy living in a chocolate city in a neighborhood which is quoted as close to 80% black. Virtually all my friends are black, my coworkers are pretty much all black at Target, and my boyfriend is black. If I'm walking down the street and I see a group of 15 year old black men walking towards me, might I cross the street? Probably. 15 year old white men? Probably not. Am I racist (or prejudiced?) I'm not sure. What I am sure is that it probably is a self-esteem issue on my part rather than an issue with the 15 year olds.

I work in a middle school in a middle to upper-middle class suburb. I've noticed that the black men act out and get yelled at more than the white men. Are they acting out because they are black? No. Skin color does cause certain actions. Why can they be acting out? Maybe they feel like they have to act out because they are in the minority. Maybe they get more attention from the (mostly-all white) staff just because they are black and that just feeds into their ego (what middle schooler does not just crave attention) and thus starts a cycle. Maybe they come from a bad home

My boyfriend came from the white suburbs where his parents were strict and watched their kids every move. Thus he is a very responsible person (financial issues aside) and has never really entered the culture that black men are "expected" (and this is meant to be stereotypical) to be in such as listening to rap, stealing, drugs, or plain acting out. In my city, many black children come from broken homes (My friend 's brother has six children from six different moms), go to shitty schools, eat shitty food, have shitty parents, etc and they look to friends for support. They rebel from all their brokenness, have a grim outlook in life, and start trouble. Is it their fault? I would say mostly no. Of course, this is not everyone and I know black PhD candidates, nurses, writers, etc who have come from broken homes but have been able to support themselves.

Anyway I'm rambling and tired so let me just stop before I get less coherent.


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## babytrees (Mar 26, 2014)

willthisbeonthetest said:


> Is the OP for real?!  I can't imagine any ETL -- at least in my store -- acting, thinking, speaking the way all of the people in this scenario are purported to have acted.
> 
> No ETL would let a TM stand outside for 30 minutes, no one would ever get coached for not saying 'hello' to an ETL (maybe for insubordination if they passively aggressively refused a task), no ETL would EVER DARE call a team member a 'monkey' regardless of the circumstances.  And there would certainly be no discussion among TM, TL and ETL about coaching team members unless it was need to know.
> 
> ...


ETL's have in the past and continue to make team members wait outside for upwards of 30 minutes
A TM was coached for not saying hello to a ETL....said TM was a friend of mine and I saw him less than 5 minutes after the coaching.(This happened over a year ago and integrity has been called so many times on this particular ETL that they ask if the reason for the call is ETL "ABC")
In my store coachings aren't always talked about but they do sometimes....especially the tardiness and attendance coachings.

Honestly, my store is a jacked up mess with rampant sexism, racism, favoritism and a lot of other isms. Only recently has HQ stepped in.  The only thing we haven't had is a monkey incident....other than me saying a trained monkey could do my job.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

A team member should not be disciplined if they don't say hello to an ETL.  That would be like fining someone if they didn't say "thank you".  Team members and ETLs aren't suppose to be buddies.  With that being said, ETLs should be professional and shouldn't act like immature brats.   
I can definitely agree that a monkey could do my job.  An actual real life monkey could do my job. 

I'm sorry for my rant and I can agree in some ways that poor white people are disadvantaged like some minorities when it comes to college.  I think college is one of the biggest scams in America.  Poor people should not have to put themselves tens of thousands if not a 100 grand or more in debt to get a piece of paper that says they are a college graduate.  I worked my butt off in college and I shouldn't have had to put myself in debt for a piece of paper.


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## willthisbeonthetest (Mar 27, 2014)

babytrees said:


> willthisbeonthetest said:
> 
> 
> > Is the OP for real?!  I can't imagine any ETL -- at least in my store -- acting, thinking, speaking the way all of the people in this scenario are purported to have acted.
> ...



It seems like turnover their would be astronomical -- and that's a red flag that the company watches.  I just can't even imagine my DTL tolerating that.  I can't imagine them hiring any ETLs that were that unprofessional. There are things about certain ETLs that get my goat, so to speak, but at the end of the day they're all competent and professional.   TLs couldn't even get away with that behavior in our district.


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## willthisbeonthetest (Mar 27, 2014)

there, not their...oops.


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## Barcode (Mar 27, 2014)

commiecorvus said:


> When it comes to college acceptance you know what the real Affirmative Action is for college acceptance?
> It's legacy.
> If your daddy went to the school you're guaranteed a spot no matter how average your grades were.
> That's how privileged people keep the system going.
> ...




No. Black people and other minorities have way more scholarship opportunities just because of their skin color (and affirmative action).

Also unless daddy is a board member, hes more than likely going to have no influence on getting you into college. Why would admissions care that you're the son of joe schmo who graduated there 25 years ago? Lol.

The fact is affirmative action gives minorities far more opportunities than a White Male in their 20s. When affirmative action is gone, I'll agree that everyone has an equal shot.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 27, 2014)

Barcode said:


> commiecorvus said:
> 
> 
> > When it comes to college acceptance you know what the real Affirmative Action is for college acceptance?
> ...


You gotta know I don't say these things without backup.
Interesting article on legacy preference.
https://chronicle.com/article/10-Myths-About-Legacy/124561/



> While some colleges and universities try to play down the impact of legacy preferences, calling them "tie breakers," research from Princeton's Thomas Espenshade suggests that their weight is significant, on the order of adding 160 SAT points to a candidate's record (on a scale of 400-1600).
> Likewise, William Bowen, of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, and colleagues found that, within a given SAT-score range, being a legacy increased one's chances of admission to a selective institution by 19.7 percentage points.
> That is to say, a given student whose academic record gave her a 40-percent chance of admissions would have nearly a 60-percent chance if she were a legacy.



And that's just the beginning, what works for Jews also works for other minorities.



> In fact, as Peter Schmidt, of The Chronicle, notes, legacies originated following World War I as a reaction to an influx of immigrant students, particularly Jews, into America's selective colleges.
> As Jews often outcompeted traditional constituencies on standard meritocratic criteria, universities adopted Jewish quotas.
> When explicit quotas became hard to defend, the universities began to use more-indirect means to limit Jewish enrollment, including considerations of "character," geographic diversity, and legacy status.



And here's a per reviewed paper on the distribution of scholarships between minority and white college students.
Your premise is wrong. It's a PDF so I can't do a quote but white students get three times as many merit based grants and private scholarships.
http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf

Affirmative Action is used as a boogyman that only scares people who don't understand a need for changes in a system that is broken.


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## greeneggsandham (Mar 27, 2014)

Barcode said:


> redeye58 said:
> 
> 
> > Barcode said:
> ...




If you lose GSTL keys it's a final warning. If you misplace and someone finds it, that's a counseling... GSA 1 LOST her keys, keys to the equipment cabinet.... change fund.....huge negligence and financial liability if those get into the wrong hands. It requires some recoring (not the whole store, but some).... trying to convince HR not to put her on CCA speaks volumes, especially when GSA 2 is coached for mistakes. 

Verbally coaching one person and documenting another is......wrong not to mention very stupid. I imagine being asked about the discrepancy in court in front of a jury would go something like 

"well... what had happened was.. we really liked GSA1's personality more than GSA2, so we didn't document her mistakes" #fail

Either way, lost keys, mistakes in c/o to the point of removing GSA1... doesn't equate to stellar performance on her part.


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## Barcode (Mar 27, 2014)

greeneggsandham said:


> Barcode said:
> 
> 
> > redeye58 said:
> ...



OP Never said it was GSTL keys though, he just said keys. Could be service desk keys or something less serious.


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## FlowingandWaving (Mar 27, 2014)

At my store all sets of keys are treated the same. Lose them = final...no questions asked. Our GSA and I are buddies outside of work...she's on a final for losing SD keys. I'm on a final for losing BR keys. But, we both eventually found them sometime later


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## Barcode (Mar 27, 2014)

Our Photo TM brought the keys home on accident once lol. They brought them back right away though! Not sure if the higher ups would have been mad but I kept quiet lol.


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## stardust (Mar 27, 2014)

some things in this thread make me really uncomfortable. a couple points:

a.) white women are the primary beneficiary of affirmative action & white students still receive the majority of scholarship money.

b.) the hair comment was racist on its face. it might just "seem mean" on a surface level but there is more to it than that. hair is a big deal to black people and black women in particular. "kinky" is a natural hair texture that is coded as black. it is also commonly coded as "unprofessional," among other things, which is why many black women relax/straighten their hair as they are often penalized socially and professionally if they do not. "good hair" is straight hair -- having hair texture similar to a white person's, basically. so what was going on in that conversation was someone literally saying "i hope my baby doesn't have hair texture like a black person's."

and yeah, race issues aside, i do feel this was handled very poorly. if i went to one of my ETLs with concerns and was treated that dismissively it would greatly diminish the trust i put in store leadership. i am very lucky to have great ETLs at my store and the things i hear from friends at other stores and have read here makes me worry about moving out of town.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 27, 2014)

Good post @stardust 

Welcome to The Break Room.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

Target is a proud supporter of affirmative action and the LGBT community.  Just sayin'. 
Well, that's what we are told in the silly training videos.  Why isn't there an S in LGBT?  Shouldn't it be LGBTS or something of that sort?  I mean if the LGBT community is going to be tolerant and open minded, shouldn't they include straight people to the community as well?  And no, I'm not trying to start anything.  I am just curious about the exclusion of straight people when it comes to LGBT.  I don't care who you screw.  Well, I guess you have to have a little common sense and make sure every person in the bed is 18 and older and consenting and not a blood relative.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 28, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> Target is a proud supporter of affirmative action and the LGBT community.  Just sayin'.
> Well, that's what we are told in the silly training videos.  Why isn't there an S in LGBT?  Shouldn't it be LGBTS or something of that sort?  I mean if the LGBT community is going to be tolerant and open minded, shouldn't they include straight people to the community as well?  And no, I'm not trying to start anything.  I am just curious about the exclusion of straight people when it comes to LGBT.  I don't care who you screw.  Well, I guess you have to have a little common sense and make sure every person in the bed is 18 and older and consenting and not a blood relative.



I guess we've given up on the original point of this thread entirely.
I'm sure there are people here who could do a better job of answering this question but WTH.
I know folks have taken to using the much more unwieldy LGBTQIA.
Which pretty much covers everybody, lesbian, gay, bi, transgender, queer, intersex, ally.

But really it was really never about covering everybody.
It's about the *politics. *
These were people who had been marginalized and even killed for generations.
Killed even now, sometimes by their parents.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/dad-killed-daughter-lesbian-lover-gay-mom-article-1.1722103

Communities around the world felt there had to be a better description than just 'gay'.
So early in the 80's they started using LGBT and used it when they fought the AIDS epidemic.
LGBT worked even in countries like France.
The allies were kind of a given.
The founder of PFLAG, Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Jeanne Manford marched in the first gay parades.
She was an amazing woman, really worth reading about.
http://www.npr.org/2013/01/12/169223070/remembering-pflag-founder-and-mother


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

We need to stop separating people with all of these organizations and associations in my opinion.  We recognize diversity way too much while at the same time alienating and dividing people.  There's nothing wrong with acknowledging diversity but being different or diverse should not equate superiority or being unique.  A simple acknowledgement is the way I would go with it.  We need to unite or if not at least being able to get along and tolerate people.  You don't have to agree with people's sexual preferences or preferences of any sort but you shouldn't go out of your way to be mean to them because you don't like their behavior and/or lifestyle.  Just be nice and simma down now.


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## newtm (Mar 29, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> Bu explain to me why I was basically SOL when it came to scholarships?  Why was a minority more deserving and needing of help than me?  That is the thing that annoys me.  This myth that every white person has a great life and never suffers and does nor need help.  That is completely racist and false.  Minorities can be just as racist as white people.  I laugh and smirk when people say otherwise.  If a black person hates a person because they are white, that is straight up racism.  Please don't make excuses.  I was a white guy that wasn't good at sports so I was basically screwed when it came to scholarships.  If I had been a minority of some sort, my college experience would have been a lot cheaper.  Thank you.


minority college student here.. my college experience has NOT been cheap and I don't get scholarships or financial aid either. Your justification for not getting scholarship money because you aren't good at sports or not a minority shows a sense of entitlement that I'd associate with privilege.


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## Barcode (Mar 29, 2014)

newtm said:


> Jackswastedlife99 said:
> 
> 
> > Bu explain to me why I was basically SOL when it came to scholarships?  Why was a minority more deserving and needing of help than me?  That is the thing that annoys me.  This myth that every white person has a great life and never suffers and does nor need help.  That is completely racist and false.  Minorities can be just as racist as white people.  I laugh and smirk when people say otherwise.  If a black person hates a person because they are white, that is straight up racism.  Please don't make excuses.  I was a white guy that wasn't good at sports so I was basically screwed when it came to scholarships.  If I had been a minority of some sort, my college experience would have been a lot cheaper.  Thank you.
> ...



If you didn't qualify for Financial aid, you didn't need it (or try hard enough to get it).

Fact of the matter is minorities take precedence over majorities given all other qualifications the same -- So you're complaining that you have an advantage, and at the same time call ME privileged?


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## commiecorvus (Mar 29, 2014)

Barcode said:


> If you didn't qualify for Financial aid, you didn't need it (or try hard enough to get it).
> 
> Fact of the matter is minorities take precedence over majorities given all other qualifications the same -- So you're complaining that you have an advantage, and at the same time call ME privileged?



But as we all know identical qualifications hardly ever happen.
Just like no two fingerprints are alike, no two peoples academic records are alike.

And you didn't read this, did you?
White students still have the advantage when it comes to all Financial aid.
http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf


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## Barcode (Mar 29, 2014)

commiecorvus said:


> Barcode said:
> 
> 
> > If you didn't qualify for Financial aid, you didn't need it (or try hard enough to get it).
> ...



No two fingerprints are alike, but in the case of academic records there can be close similarity which is effectively identical. This is where things like Extracurricular activities, and race can come into play.

You can't use % based statistics to say a majority gets more financial aid/scholarships. Of course we get a higher % because we consist of a greater portion of the population.

Sure there are some Caucasian only scholarships -- that's our way of fighting affirmative action and reverse discrimination. There are just as many minority only scholarships -- If you really want to fix the problem, end affirmative action and ALL racial profiling.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 29, 2014)

Barcode said:


> No two fingerprints are alike, but in the case of academic records there can be close similarity which is effectively identical. This is where things like Extracurricular activities, and race can come into play.
> 
> You can't use % based statistics to say a majority gets more financial aid/scholarships. Of course we get a higher % because we consist of a greater portion of the population.
> 
> Sure there are some Caucasian only scholarships -- that's our way of fighting affirmative action and reverse discrimination. There are just as many minority only scholarships -- If you really want to fix the problem, end affirmative action and ALL racial profiling.



If you read further down, it's kinda long I know, it goes into Pell grants and general education financial aid.
It also breaks down the statistics.

And you're right it often does come down to extracurricular activities, which is often part of the problem.
At least in the inner city school where my wife taught.
There was no drama club, no band, no debate, in fact the only activity that had money put into was ...
You guessed it sports.
Whenever they went to the school board for money for other things the money wasn't available.

Now I'm not saying a middle class minority won't do just fine but poor white/black/hispanic, it doesn't matter.
They're screwed.
People need to be more pissed off about this.
It's not about color so much as class.
That's one of the other things that study suggests, that if more of the scholarships were based on means than they would be better distributed.


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## Dreamwolf31 (Mar 29, 2014)

I go to a school that provides a lot of scholarships to minorities only.  This really bothers me because it seems like reverse prejudice, right? 

Anyways, the comment about being white and not able to receive scholarships -  I have to disagree.   Coming out of high school I had about 16k in scholarships.  This was all spent on out-of-state tuition my first year.  I worked for my scholarships by studying for my ACT/SATs  to get a good score and doing years of community service work..   They weren't just handed to me.   Also, I've noticed that a lot of freshman university students don't even bother filling out a fafsa?!   There are opportunities for everyone out there, but you actually have to apply yourself and show you're committed.   You just need to look for them and you can't say "Oh, but all of these scholarships are for minorities, so I won't even bother!"


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## Barcode (Mar 29, 2014)

commiecorvus said:


> Barcode said:
> 
> 
> > No two fingerprints are alike, but in the case of academic records there can be close similarity which is effectively identical. This is where things like Extracurricular activities, and race can come into play.
> ...



Actually there are plenty of opportunities for poor students. I went to St Paul College for a year (minnesota'a inner city community college), and there were plenty of poor minorities including immigrants. Many received aid or scholarships. One kid in my program just came here from Ethiopia and his schooling was all paid for by a program for minorities/immigrants.

In fact at that school, minorities were actually the majority. Seemed like it anyway.

I wasn't talking about poor students though, I think any financially challenged individual should have the opportunity to go to school regardless of race.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2014)

I was just being honest.  Minorities have a card or chip they can play.  I'm white so I can't.  It doesn't matter that I've been poor my whole life.  Since I'm white, I'm automatically not eligible for affirmative action.  Entitled?  Maybe so but not because I'm white.  It's because I was raised in the time in which teachers and family brainwashed their students and kids that in order to be a winner in life, you have to go to college.  It's sad but true.  I was brainswashed with the "hard work pays offs" bull crap.  Hard work and doing your best do not pay off.  I'm 30 and I have found that out the hard way.  You have to get lucky, have connections, or be rich to be successful in America. 

American society puts way too much pressure on kids when it comes to academics.  There is nothing wrong with going to a trade school or a technical school.  Definitely nothing wrong with being a beautician, mechanic, or plumber. 

The thing that puzzles me is the reasoning behind affirmative action.  For example, Native American students can get affirmative action because of what happened to their ancestors in the 1800s.  African American students can get the same rewards because of what happened to their ancestors in the 1800s too.  I'm sorry but you did not suffer like your ancestors did so why should you get a reward.  I am not trying to start a race war or riot or anything.  I am just genuinely curious.  Yes, racism and prejudice exist in America but people have changed.  People are more accepting and tolerant in my opinion.  What if I was somehow able to prove that I had an ancestor that was maybe biracial and suffered because of slavery or something of that sort, should I be able to cash in on that?  I've done ancestry.com for the past year and I have found no records of owning slaves in my bloodline.  A lot of people forget that it was rich white people that owned slaves.


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## Dreamwolf31 (Mar 30, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> Yes, racism and prejudice exist in America but people have changed.  People are more accepting and tolerant in my opinion.



You should take a trip to the south.  I was raised in the south and  my god can people be racist and prejudiced.  I've always found it odd considering some of the more racist areas are part of the bible belt.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2014)

Hehe.  I live in the south and have lived in here for the majority of my life.  Racism and prejudice exist everywhere.  People can be racist anywhere and have prejudice any place on this planet.  You can't stereotype or generalize the south as racist because there are lot of people from all cultures and backgrounds that get along peacefully.  Yeah, some people are racist but it's 2014.  Give people a little more credit.


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## Barcode (Mar 30, 2014)

Being a northerner, I don't witness racism that often.. Some people might be a little bit prejudiced (mostly the older folk), but I haven't seen anyone outright hostile over it...


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## redeye58 (Mar 30, 2014)

Ever go into a store & have security follow you around?
People asking you repeatedly if you need help (outside of Target)?
Pay with cash & have a cashier count your money 3-4 times?
Make a return with receipt & have it scrutinized while the person ahead of you did a no-receipt return without fuss?
Walk across an intersection & have people waiting at the light lock their car doors when you approach?
Go cruising with some friends, playing music with the windows down & get pulled over by a cop for no reason other than what you are?
Just some of the experiences of my niece's husband down here in the south.


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## commiecorvus (Mar 30, 2014)

Maybe it's because I'm older but I've lived in the far north and on the east coast.
I've seen racism and bigotry in forms that range from microaggressions to straight out violence.
You have to remember they were still lynching people when I was a kid and Medgar Evers was killed when I was three.
This isn't past history, it hasn't gone away. it's still out there.
I was eight when MLK was murdered.
I know this all seems like the distant past to you but it's still real to most people.
Congressman John Lewis was almost beaten to death when he marched for civil rights during Freedom Summer.
The police looked the other way while men beat on him and kicked him.

Yes the world has changed but not that much, and it is not the wonderful colorblind place you would like to think it is.
Right now they are trying to reverse the voting rights that were fought so hard for back in the sixties.
We are going back to the days of the poll tax all over again.


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## 3LetterDevil (Mar 31, 2014)

Barcode said:


> *Sure there are some Caucasian only scholarships* -- that's our way of fighting affirmative action and reverse discrimination. There are just as many minority only scholarships -- If you really want to fix the problem, end affirmative action and ALL racial profiling.


Really? Where? I'd love to see one specifically FOR "Caucasians" because I've NEVER seen one in my lifetime


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## commiecorvus (Mar 31, 2014)

tgtcpht said:


> Barcode said:
> 
> 
> > *Sure there are some Caucasian only scholarships* -- that's our way of fighting affirmative action and reverse discrimination. There are just as many minority only scholarships -- If you really want to fix the problem, end affirmative action and ALL racial profiling.
> ...




http://dailyprincetonian.com/news/2006/11/bu-club-offers-scholarship-for-whites/


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## 3LetterDevil (Mar 31, 2014)

commiecorvus said:


> tgtcpht said:
> 
> 
> > Barcode said:
> ...


Okay, there have been a handful through the years (I was able to find a few more that have been offered, as this one was, for 1 or two years, never more), but to say _*"there are just as many minority only"*_ is nowhere CLOSE to being correct. The number of "minority only" outweighs the number of "caucasian only" by the hundreds (if not more)...


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## commiecorvus (Apr 1, 2014)

tgtcpht said:


> commiecorvus said:
> 
> 
> > tgtcpht said:
> ...



Actually both sides make up a small percentage of the direct scholarships that are available. They rank right along with the ones strictly for people with red hair or for the children of single mothers (those do exist).

But if you take a look at these links  http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf and white women are the primary beneficiary of affirmative action & white students still receive the majority of scholarship money. it is clear that minorities still get the short end of the stick when it comes to ALL money.

We've totally gotten off track from the original point of this thread and I accept much of the blame.
Lets try to get this back on track.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

I just want people to admit that there is a double standard when it comes to affirmative action and scholarships.  It's considered racist for whites especially white males to get scholarships because they're white but it's not racist at all if a non-white person gets one because that person is non-white. 
With that being said, I don't think it really matters.  I was very naïve, young, gullible, and too trusting when I was in college.  I didn't think things through and I am paying the price for them.  The best advice I could give high school students or anyone that has never gone to college is simply avoid doing the things that I did.  If you do that, you will save yourself a lot of time, money, and stress.  If only I could write a book about it...  hmmm maybe it's time to do it.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 9, 2014)

The double-standard you refer to comes from the fact that white people are inherently privileged, so it isn't racism.


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## Barcode (Apr 9, 2014)

snoboy8999 said:


> The double-standard you refer to comes from the fact that white people are inherently privileged, so it isn't racism.


Privileged in the fact that we get passed over on jobs for equally qualified minorities due to Affirmative action? Ok.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 9, 2014)

Barcode said:


> snoboy8999 said:
> 
> 
> > The double-standard you refer to comes from the fact that white people are inherently privileged, so it isn't racism.
> ...



Privileged to the fact that there is a higher ratio of middle managers who are white and people on average hire people like themselves.
Affirmative Action only works in Federal jobs or school situations where the government can actually have some direct effect through funding.

Otherwise you have to depend on company policy and the best efforts of human beings and we all know how that can turn out.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 9, 2014)

Some people just don't get it. It's fine, they are the people that are going to be missing out in their lives when things don't go how they want due to their prejudice and blindness.

I am thankful to not be that person.


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## Barcode (Apr 10, 2014)

Prejudice is a strong word to be throwing around when you are advocating giving minorities precedence over jobs.. Couldn't be more prejudiced IMO.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 10, 2014)

Barcode said:


> Prejudice is a strong word to be throwing around when you are advocating giving minorities precedence over jobs.. Couldn't be more prejudiced IMO.



It's not prejudice when you're trying to fix preexisting problems.
And for anybody who wants to tell you that everything is hunky dory I promise you it aint.

It was a battle to get the rights, it was a battle to to a create some kind of equal footing, and that has been eroding from the moment it went into effect because of the push back.
Look at what they have been doing with voting rights as a great example.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

Rewarding minorities because they are minorities is straight up racism.  If you can't see that, then not much else to say.  It's just sad to be honest.  Solve racism with racism?  I love that logic.  That's the type of logic that Target uses.  And yes, they do practice and preacher affirmative action at Target. 
I can be humble and admit that being white can help when it comes to not being profiled when it comes to law enforcement but in my 30 years of life that's about it.  I have been in the lower class or lower middle class my entire life so I really want to know how I have privilege when it comes to money.  I'm a white person so that means I'm rich right? 

What I don't get is why I and other poor white people get screwed over because some minorities in America had ancestors that were slaves or abused in the Civil Rights movement.  I never owned slaves so why the beef with me?


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## commiecorvus (Apr 10, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> What I don't get is why I and other poor white people get screwed over because some minorities in America had ancestors that were slaves or abused in the Civil Rights movement.  I never owned slaves so why the beef with me?



The thing is you aren't getting screwed over by minorities.
It's being made to look like that to keep you occupied.
That way you don't look at who is *really* screwing you.

They people who have the actual power, the ones who keep prices high and wages low, they are the ones you should be pissed off at.
But they make sure the very people who need to work together to fight them are fighting each other.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

Affirmative action was made by rich white liberals that had white guilt.  Plain and simple.  Those guilty rich white liberals should be giving up their jobs to minority candidates if they feel so strongly for affirmative action.  Practice what you preach.  Again, why am I poor if I'm an evil white male?  If I'm privileged, I should be rich or well off.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 10, 2014)

You're not poor because you're an evil white male.
Nobody said that or even implied that.
What they were trying to point out is there are things you don't have to deal with (like being stopped when you come out of your own house because you live in a white neighborhood or having a coworker believe you) that black people don't.

The rich white politicians usually represent districts of the same.
In the districts of minorities they are usually represented by minorities.
Welcome to gerrymandering.
Both parties are guilty of it but the Republicans have raised it to a new level making it possible to be totally tone deaf to the American public.

Wages have stagnated in America because of income inequality across the board, not just for any one group.
Student loan debt is making millions for banks and crushing a generation.
The middle class is being wiped out and the rich are buying the government.
It will only get worse with the new rulings that the Supreme Court has made.
We are becoming a plutocracy rather than a democracy and you are suffering because of it.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 10, 2014)

Understand what things like privilege and racism are before trying to argue what constitutes as either.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 10, 2014)

Also, the concept of privilege is not necessarily being "privileged with wealth". Privilege does not equal money.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

Privilege means money to me.  If I'm going to have privilege, I expect to have money.  I just don't like it when white people and minorities get all uppity and hostile with me when it comes to this crap.  I never owned any slaves or plantations.  I've never been a Klan member.  I wasn't a cop that almost beat a black guy to death.  I never refused to help a minority because they weren't a white.  Have I stereotyped?  Yes.  Have I had racist thoughts and said racist comments in the past?  Yes.  Do I truly hate minorities?  No.  In order for me to hate you or not like you, you have to get on my list.  I'm sorry but I just don't like being blamed for crap that I didn't do.  Go blame rich white liberals and neocons for that crap.   

America wouldn't be so freaking in debt if the country wasn't overseas forcing other countries to be American and democratic which basically makes those countries hate and resent America even if more than they already do.  Build crap here, not overseas.  Murica FTW!


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 14, 2014)

You don't understand though.

You're white, so you are privileged. It's not a money thing. It's a you being white thing. People who aren't white, or male, or heterosexual, for some other examples, are in some way oppressed, because they are not in the majority.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

Again, why is that my fault?  Why is math my problem?  Aren't you being racist when you say "you're white"?  I just laugh at the race baiting in America right now.  I'm not singling out anyone on here but it's just out of control in American society right now.  It's like some people want there to be racism so they can go on some type of crusade to make themselves feel better about themselves or to get something in return.  It's pathetic.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 14, 2014)

No, you don't know what racism is, nor do you know what prejudice, or what privilege is.

This conversation is absolutely ridiculous and pointless, and rather that start arguing with you, I'm just going to say that you're wrong and leave it at that. You can have your rants about whatever you want, but you should understand that you are horribly misguided and would benefit taking a diversity class or ten.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 14, 2014)

Jack when you went to college did you take any classes on sociology?
If you had you'd know that snoboy is using the technical definitions of the words which is why you're both having such a hard time talking to each other.
Do some reading, it's fascinating. 

The ideas of privilege are social constructs are much more complicated than you want to make them.
People want to break it down to some simple idea because that makes it easier to dismiss.
Complicated problems are hard to fix and take thought.
They also take people being willing to put thought into making things work.

Instead of just brushing a coworkers concerns away because you don't see, it might mean having to look it a situation with fresh eyes.
Instead of getting our backs up and assuming that people are trying to take something away from you when they are trying to get equal treatment, think that maybe your own circumstances might be bad for some of the same reasons their are and join them in the fight.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

I'm white so I don't know what racism and prejudice are.  I love that logic.  Blast someone for being racist by being racist.  Awesome logic. 

Sadly, I went to college and I took sociology classes as electives and yes I took classes about inequality, race, and minorities.  I can show you my transcript if need be.  What amuses me is how people judge me solely on my skin and tell me I'm clueless on something because of my skin.  That is straight up racism and prejudice in my opinion.  Not even giving me a chance.  Just judging me without even giving me a chance.  That is what I don't get when it comes to trying to fix racism and prejudice in America.  I don't understand the logic of trying to fix those things with more racism and prejudice and being very condescending and rude to people that are white.  If you're a minority, how do you expect to get sympathy or have people help your cause or situation?  Got to stop playing the blame game and just try to get along.  Stop giving gold stars for diversity and being special or different and just be nice and try to get along or at least exist together. 
Saying that I can't have an opinion on racism and prejudice or that my opinion is less because I'm white is no different than a Klan member saying that black people or Jewish people are less.  Anyone can be a racist including minorities.  Anyone including minorities can have prejudice.  Racism and prejudice are thoughts and conceived judgments toward a person or people of a certain group.  Every human has a brain therefore anyone can have those types of thoughts.  It doesn't matter if you are white, black, Asian, Latino, etc... You have a free will and a mind and are capable of having those thoughts.  Please don't say you can't because I will laugh in my head.


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## Barcode (Apr 14, 2014)

Snoboy I'm sorry but you are so horribly wrong. I've never seen a more racist concept than "White Privilege" which is what you seem to be touting.

Any minority who has to resort to using the victim card loses all respect in my eyes -- yes if you are wronged amends should be made, but to run around demanding special treatment just because someone in your minority group was wronged? How about a survivor mentality instead of a victim mentality. And yes the whole "privilege" excuse is nothing but victim mentality.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

Props to Barcode for that amazing post.

I definitely can agree that I would lose some respect to a minority that uses the victim card because of past transgressions.  You definitely hurt your cause or movement when you demand special treatment because someone likely not you was wronged in the 1800s or 1960s.  Now if by some chance time travel was possible and an African American slave time traveled to 2014 and then yeah I wouldn't see anything wrong with giving the human some money.  Slavery is a lot worse than being called a name in my opinion.
I just don't get the whole "hey you're a minority which means you already have a strike against and no matter what you do, the evil white man will always win so we don't care if it's possible that you could be a great thinker, writer, doctor, scientist, cop, teacher, or inventor, we are going to give you a handout because you need a helping hand" mentality.  That is pure racism and extremely condescending in my opinion.  You are basically telling that minority that they're helpless and they require a helping hand because no matter what, they have a strike against them and it requires a handout.  I just think it's sad that some minorities don't see how they are treated when it comes to that crap.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 14, 2014)

I can assure you that I'm not wrong.

Privilege isn't racism. "White privilege" is also not racism. Check your facts.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 14, 2014)

No, you don't know the definition of racism and privilege because you keep using them incorrectly.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

Giving someone a handout or help solely on their skin color is racism.  Plain and simple.  I still don't get the logic of fight racism with more racism.  I just don't get it but according to some logic it's because an evil white man.  I'm poor but I have so much privilege because a long time ago, rich barbaric white people owned slaves.  I've never been rich and I've never owned slaves.  Where is my privilege?  I have never been promoted or cross trained at Target.  I owe over 40K in student loans.  I don't have my own car.  I have a prepaid flip phone.  I'm not a leader of any groups, associations, clubs, or organizations.  I'm scratching my head trying to figure out where my privilege is.  I'm white so that means my rich parents should have paid for my college and bought me a car.  I also should have a job at my dad's successful company and be a member of the uppity golf club too right? 

I think the main reason why minorities deflect on affirmative action and focus on white privilege is because they don't want to admit that they benefit from crap that happened over 160 plus years ago and don't want to be called out on it.  It's sad but true.  It's also selfish because they don't want that benefit taken away.  I'm not saying every minority is like that.  This is American society and it's all about being number no matter the costs and no matter if it's right or wrong.


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## kingpin003 (Apr 14, 2014)

Privilege: a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most.

snoboy and commie are not claiming that all white people are rich, slave masters who are actively oppressing a minority, but there are some things that need to be considered. White people do have certain privileges:

Guess who's most common drug gets a longer sentence? http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-racial-disparity-in-crack-sentencing
Guess who gets targeted between 50% and 90% of all stop-and-frisk cases? http://www.nyclu.org/files/stopandfrisk-factsheet.pdf
And guess who has to prove their citizenship when they get stopped by police? http://www.rightsworkinggroup.org/c...b1070-leaves-open-possibility-further-legal-a

Let me throw out a personal anecdote. A friend of mine is Hispanic and was hanging out with a white friend when they had the police come to their apartment. After being frisked and found to be unarmed, my friend was handcuffed and detained as they were being questioned. His friend was found to be carrying a knife that was not legal. The police took possession of the knife and asked his friend to sit on the porch. Ultimately, my friend was released and his friend was given back the knife. Isn't it prejudice to find the white male with an illegal blade more trustworthy than the Hispanic male who is unarmed?

Maybe you don't feel privileged because you're in a rough spot, and that's understandable. But artificial barriers exist, and minorities are still legally being targeted. Look at how many states tried to write copycat laws after Arizona passed SB1070. You keep focusing on slavery, but that's not what this is about, though lets touch a little on the effects of that too. Most colleges offer scholarships or grants to first-generation college students. Typically if your parents were not able to go to college, they earn more than a million less over the 40 years or so they work. That averages to at least a 25,000/year difference. So with parents that earned less, there's a good chance they couldn't afford college for their children, who then have the same struggles their parents had. We don't even have to go back as far as slavery to see that as recent as recently as the 1960's there were colleges that turned away minorities as a rule. Compounding these factors, there's only been a few generations for those families to break that cycle. 2/3 of all first-generation students are minorities. This is not a coincidence. Yes, there are white students who are the first in their family to graduate college and they qualify for the same grants and scholarships, but it's not prejudice for the scholarships to be awarded mostly to minorities because there is a large discrepancy between the amount of first-generation students. Racial tension from slavery helped cause this discrepancy because affluent white people chose to segregate. They took the opportunity first, and now we're seeing opportunities for everyone.

White privilege can be having enough money that your lawyer keeps you out of jail, or having your college is paid for with a personal check, but it doesn't have to be. White privilege can be getting a shorter drug sentence, not getting frisked when you leave your house, and not getting asked to prove you belong here. White privilege can be being deemed less dangerous and more trustworthy than a minority. White privilege is being treated differently than a minority would be treated. So yes, sometimes there are programs that attempt to create parity. That doesn't mean white people are still apologizing for slavery and hoping black people forgive them, but understanding that social policies have created a situation where there isn't equality and trying to expedite the process. Will it work? Not as long as we have ignorant people who cannot comprehend why we celebrate black history month and not white history month.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 14, 2014)

"His friend was found to be carrying a knife that was not legal. The police took possession of the knife and asked his friend to sit on the porch. Ultimately, my friend was released and his friend was given back the knife. Isn't it prejudice to find the white male with an illegal blade more trustworthy than the Hispanic male who is unarmed?"

That is textbook privilege, not prejudice.


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## Backroom81 (Apr 14, 2014)

This thread:


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## commiecorvus (Apr 14, 2014)

@Jackswastedlife99
Cool on the sociology.
Didn't mean to sound like I was talking down to you.
But maybe you can understand why it's so frustrating when trying to present concepts, we're using the same words but they seem to have different meanings.

You'll remember than that racism is a highly organized *system* of 'race'-based group privilege that operates at every level of society and is held together by a sophisticated ideology of color/'race' supremacy.
The average black or (or poor white person) is not winning with our currant system.
The tiny quotas that have been used to create balance have been pushed back o hard that the effect is pretty much negligible.
Prejudice is not racism.

As to white privilege I'll just leave this here.


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## Retail Girl (Apr 14, 2014)

That video is awesome!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

It's pointless to argue because I'm not going to change my mind and others won't change theirs.  Does that man we can't get along and co-exist together?  No.  We can still get along and try to be civil while having our differences. 

And you bring up stats about racist cops and I will say "again, what does that have to do with me". 

If you want to stop the stats about minorities getting screwed when it comes to the cops and ridiculous non violent drug charges then you have to start holding Congress accountable.  They have secret deals with the cartels in Mexico and also have massive amounts of stock in numerous countries so Congress only cares about their bank accounts and stocks.  If someone could get off their high horse and be humble for a minute and decriminalize most drugs then you wouldn't see 18 year black males going to prison for 10 plus years because they had marijuana or cocaine on them.  Not saying that drugs should be legalized but a person that is genuinely not trying to hurt anyone should not have their life destroyed because they have an addiction. 
Stop and frisk is just asking for drama.  In America, cops are out of control.  They are power hungry thugs that will do anything to make their quotas and get their promotions.  People have rights and due process but that crap has been shrinking in recent years. 


I just think that fighting racism with racism is wrong and terrible logic but this is America and you have the freedom to believe that fighting racism with racism is okay.  With that being said, I have the freedom to disagree with that. 

I have a question for fighting racism with racism supporters:
Example, let's say you are a high ranking official in the Marines and you have to pick a sniper for a mission and you have two choices: a white sniper that is 90% accurate with a rifle at 100 yards and a black sniper that is 80% accurate with a rifle at 100 yards.  Which one would you pick? 
And for all of the people that will say "why did you say the white sniper had a better accuracy", I will ask the same question but swap the accuracies and who would you pick? 

What it boils down to is do you want talent and skill or diversity and making yourself not having to deal with being called a racist?  That is my main beef with affirmative action.  If you are good at your job, you should be given props and preferential treatment.  It does not matter what you are.  If you are good, you should be rewarded.  You shouldn't be rewarded solely because your boss or company wants to make sure that there is diversity.


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## Hardlinesmaster (Apr 14, 2014)

Ok, everybody! Let's take a break. We are not here to judge folks. We are here to help folks.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 14, 2014)

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

What I had hoped was that at least we could agree on what we were disagreeing about.
That perhaps we could reach a common understanding on what the words we were using meant and why certain ideas weren't so easy to dismiss.

For example you asked what the racist cops had to do with you.
If they aren't in your neighborhood I suppose not much but if they pass you by to stop somebody of color even though both of you are doing the same thing than it it makes a big difference.
You just don't see it.

Nobody is fight racism with racism.
You can't.
Read the definition of the word.
If you try to adjust a racist system, that is all you are doing.
It's not (g-d I hate this term) "reverse racism", it's trying to fix a broken system.

As to your straw man argument about snipers.
Any commander will tell you that accuracy on a range is not the only reason you pick a sniper for a mission.
Though considering that one unit of marine snipers took to using a burning cross hairs with KKK as their insignia I'm guessing the number of blacks in their unit is probably nil. 
http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/05/marine-scout-sniper-burning-cross-logo-raises-controversy/

So wrapping this up, you're right I probably can't change your mind but I hope that some of the things I've said might make you think about things a bit.
I lived a most of my life in a trailer court scrabbling to make it to the next paycheck so it's not like I'm coming from a place of wealth.
We need to keep in mind that our place is with our brothers not fighting them.
This is a class thing not a color thing.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

Commie, I agreed with some of the stuff in your last post about it being a class thing and not a race thing.  Poor people get screwed just as much as minorities yet we aren't allowed to talk about it. 

I was simply asking if people prefer quality, talent, and skill or diversity, saving your own butt, and being insecure about who you are as a person. 

This is just my own view of profiling when it comes to sketchy characters.  I don't know if I'm weird or because I have anxiety and panic attacks but I can get uncomfortable and scared around anyone from any race.  It all depends on the situation.  You can call it a spidey sense or I have no idea.  I try not to profile or stereotype but I have and I'm guilty of it.  I try not to because I want to give people the benefit of the doubt and a chance.


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## snoboy8999 (Apr 14, 2014)

Your profiling of sketchy characters, for whatever reason you find them sketchy, I'm assuming race or appearance, is not necessarily racism. It is the exact opposite of privilege.


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## redeye58 (Apr 14, 2014)

In jr high, select students were allowed to be office aides. We collected attendance, ran forms to classrooms, filed paperwork in the office, etc.
Our school system had only been integrated for 4 years so I was there when the first black student was allowed to be an aide. My mom worked in the office so I heard the story about another mom who was upset that her daughter was passed over for the black student (selection was based on grades & conduct).
When some fundraiser money came up missing, she was blamed first with a secretary ready to call her mother to "make things right".
The assistant principal talked with my mom & another staffer who observed another student who 'suddenly' seemed to have extra spending money. She was buying cokes & candy for all her friends after school so word had gotten around. He called her in; she confessed to taking the money & her parents had to cover the loss.
No apology was offered to the black girl who was accused & she eventually gave up the aide privilege.

When my first son was a toddler, I had a flat. I was just starting to change my tire when a black man stopped & insisted on helping me. His mother raised him never to leave a lady in distress, he explained. We chatted as he switched out the tire. Another car pulled over & a white guy in a suit hopped out asking if I needed help. I said a gentleman was already helping me. He asked me_ if I was sure. _I said yeah, we're good so he got back in & slowly drove off. The guy who changed my tire refused payment until I told him he could just drop it in the plate at church.

Privilege still exists. It's a subtle undercurrent, not always based just on race.
You wouldn't notice or care if a Black or Hispanic secured a mortgage at a much higher rate than a white person.
You'd think differently if your car insurance rate was based on your zip code & you happened to live in an area with a diverse population.


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## Barcode (Apr 15, 2014)

commiecorvus said:


> So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
> 
> What I had hoped was that at least we could agree on what we were disagreeing about.
> That perhaps we could reach a common understanding on what the words we were using meant and why certain ideas weren't so easy to dismiss.
> ...



Well reverse racism would be in fact whats happening if we're giving minorities privileges that _MOST_ whites don't _CURRENTLY _get. I say MOST because we live in the 2010s now, and it isn't the 1960s anymore. Up here in the Northern States racism is pretty much extinct, and there is hardly any need for affirmative action, yet it is still there and ends up being unfair to white males.

We are arguing over wrongs that have been committed in the PAST (at least in my State), and its really pointless to keep playing the victim mentality for minorities; like they need some sort of special protection from us big bad white males. Its a very bad mentality to get into, because it breeds dependence and kills motivation/responsibility.

Some people who remember the civil rights movements might feel differently, and think these "protections" should NEVER go away, but in my opinion we're trying to fix something that isn't broken (and in essence breaking it ourselves).


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## commiecorvus (Apr 15, 2014)

Barcode said:


> Well reverse racism would be in fact whats happening if we're giving minorities privileges that _MOST_ whites don't _CURRENTLY _get. I say MOST because we live in the 2010s now, and it isn't the 1960s anymore. Up here in the Northern States racism is pretty much extinct, and there is hardly any need for affirmative action, yet it is still there and ends up being unfair to white males.
> 
> We are arguing over wrongs that have been committed in the PAST (at least in my State), and its really pointless to keep playing the victim mentality for minorities; like they need some sort of special protection from us big bad white males. Its a very bad mentality to get into, because it breeds dependence and kills motivation/responsibility.
> 
> Some people who remember the civil rights movements might feel differently, and think these "protections" should NEVER go away, but in my opinion we're trying to fix something that isn't broken (and in essence breaking it ourselves).



As someone who does remember the civil rights movement quite vividly I can say with some sadness that things have gotten worse in many ways and the some of the northern states are the worst examples.
My wife taught in an urban school that at one time had mixed races due to desegregation.
Those went away and now schools are more segregated than they were before.
Voting rights, early voting, and youth registration are being stripped back at an alarming rate and some northern states are leading the pack.
Before anyone wants to say "those are to prevent fraud at the voting booth", the head of the Pennsylvania Republican party admitted on tape that the reason they passed the law was to reduce minority votes.
Hell, in Florida where they sometimes have six hour wait times to vote people are not going to be allowed to use the bathroom.

Yes, some of the laws were put into effect to remedy problems from the past but it's been proven that the minute the laws are dropped the problems come right back.
This whole idea that there is a victim mentality and everybody is accusing "the big bad WM" of picking on them, ignores the reality that there are groups with very specific agendas who desperately trying to marginalize minority communities.
However, those same people don't have the best interests of the poor whites at heart either.


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## Barcode (Apr 15, 2014)

Heck, its easy to vote up here in MN, you can register on election day too right before you cast your ballot. I'd say in my precinct I am in and out in 3-5 minutes, and that's with a line.

I don't agree with Voter ID, I definitely think it will cause smaller turnouts (which is bad by principle).


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2014)

I think you should have to have some type of ID in order to vote mainly for recording purposes only.  It's not about screwing over minorities or telling them that they can't vote.  Just show some ID of some sort. 

Affirmative action will always be fighting racism with racism.  It says that minorities are stupid, weak, need the white man's help, and basically no matter what they do, they need help because of their skin color.  It says that white people don't need help ever ever ever getting back together.  But yeah affirmative action needs to go.  Again, I will take quality, skill, experience, and talent over being able to brag to rich uppity white liberals about having a rainbow every time.  If that makes me a Klan member, then guilty as charged.  I run a company or organization, I want humans that have the skill, talent, will, and experience to get the job done efficiently.  Humans should not be rewarded for being a part of a certain group.  That is no different than signs that said "whites only" or "colored people".  It's racism and people need to just own up and admit it.  Let go of your past hatred and learn to get along despite differences.  So yeah being the best or good at what you do is far more valuable than being a representative of diversity in my opinion.  What do I know?  I'm an evil white guy and my opinion on race is less.  Yep, that's not racist at all.


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## commiecorvus (Apr 15, 2014)

The problem with the ID's is they are making them have to bring in very specific kinds of ID's.
SS cards, veteran's ID, college ID, things that worked for years all of a sudden aren't acceptable.
A 85 year old woman who voted from the days when they shot black people people for registering to vote suddenly can't vote because she doesn't have the right kind of ID.
What they couldn't do with a gun they did with a little paperwork.

There are all kinds of federal laws that make employers who have federal contractors play by fairer rules than the rest of the world.
They have to pay men and women equally unlike the companies out here, they have to pay a living wage to the lowest wage earner, they have to hire the certain percentage of the disabled and yes, of minorities.
As someone who worked getting people with disabilities jobs I can tell you those jobs made a huge difference in a community that is horribly under served.

These things make a difference, they set a standard and give opportunities to people who otherwise wouldn't have a chance.
It's not a bad thing to give a deaf or blind person have a full time job so they aren't on welfare for the rest of their life.
These kinds of programs make this country a better place to live.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2014)

Why not reward people for their talents and skills rather than for their minority status?


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## commiecorvus (Apr 16, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> Why not reward people for their talents and skills rather than for their minority status?



Tell you what. when we stop rewarding people for being born to the rich, powerful, connected, and non minority than lets talk.


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## Barcode (Apr 16, 2014)

commiecorvus said:


> The problem with the ID's is they are making them have to bring in very specific kinds of ID's.
> SS cards, veteran's ID, college ID, things that worked for years all of a sudden aren't acceptable.
> A 85 year old woman who voted from the days when they shot black people people for registering to vote suddenly can't vote because she doesn't have the right kind of ID.
> What they couldn't do with a gun they did with a little paperwork.
> ...



They just need to start putting Personal Pictures on Social Security Cards, and make that an acceptable form of ID. Everyone has a SS Card (mostly), so it wouldn't be that bad. I'm sure they'd be able to think of a way for people to vote who lost theirs or forgot it/etc.

Long as they can do it without negatively impacting voter turnouts, I think it would be okay.


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## Retail Girl (Apr 16, 2014)

That wouldn't be legal...giving someone who doesn't need it access to your SSN is the fastest way to identity fraud.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2014)

I just don't see why race is always brought up when it comes to being asked to show an ID for record keeping purposes only to vote.  Isn't that racist for people to assume that minorities will be singled out?  If you go with that logic, aren't you saying that minorities are lazy and/or stupid by assuming it's hard for them to get forms of ID or if they don't possess them?  I think ID should be a must if you are voting.  I don't care if you have  a vagina or a penis.  I don't care if you're white or black or gay or straight.  If you don't have to show ID, what will stop you from voting numerous times at different locations? 

Rich people aren't really rewarded.  They have all the power.  I don't consider that to be a reward since it's something you probably didn't earn. 
Rich people's power over everyone else in America would reduce dramatically when two thing happens in Congress: term limits and no stocks.  If you are only to serve a limited amount of time in Congress and are not legally able to profit on crap you vote for or against then greed will go down and regular folks won't be screwed as much as from the Richie Riches of society.  A person that has a net worth of $450 million has no business serving in Congress in my opinion.  Just sayin'.  Yeah that's prejudice.  You shouldn't be allowed to profit from your voting record in Congress.  Sorry, no excuses or exceptions.


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## Barcode (Apr 17, 2014)

Jackswastedlife99 said:


> I just don't see why race is always brought up when it comes to being asked to show an ID for record keeping purposes only to vote.  Isn't that racist for people to assume that minorities will be singled out?  If you go with that logic, aren't you saying that minorities are lazy and/or stupid by assuming it's hard for them to get forms of ID or if they don't possess them?  I think ID should be a must if you are voting.  I don't care if you have  a vagina or a penis.  I don't care if you're white or black or gay or straight.  If you don't have to show ID, what will stop you from voting numerous times at different locations?
> 
> Rich people aren't really rewarded.  They have all the power.  I don't consider that to be a reward since it's something you probably didn't earn.
> Rich people's power over everyone else in America would reduce dramatically when two thing happens in Congress: term limits and no stocks.  If you are only to serve a limited amount of time in Congress and are not legally able to profit on crap you vote for or against then greed will go down and regular folks won't be screwed as much as from the Richie Riches of society.  A person that has a net worth of $450 million has no business serving in Congress in my opinion.  Just sayin'.  Yeah that's prejudice.  You shouldn't be allowed to profit from your voting record in Congress.  Sorry, no excuses or exceptions.



Some good points. However on voting, your name is recorded when you show up to vote (they usually have a list of people registered in the precinct), or you register on the spot.. I don't think its as easy to vote twice as people think -- nor would most people (I can't imagine) even try. It is probably more likely that people who aren't supposed to vote (felons,etc.) are voting on other people's names (or dead people), something voter id would fix (but would need to be carefully and fairly implemented)


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2014)

I think America should ease up on restricting felons from voting depending upon what they were convicted of.  I mean if you were convicted of a non violent drug charge, why should you be denied the right to vote for the rest of your life?  I can understand if you murdered someone or did something that was perverted or terrorism but I think there it should be a case by case thing.  Your life shouldn't be destroyed because you had some marijuana or cocaine on you or you robbed a convenient store with a toy gun when you were 17 or 18 but no one got hurt or killed. 
And we need to stop this whole automatic label of "criminal minority" mentality too.  White people commit crimes too.  Anyone can commit any type of crime in my opinion.  It all depends on your mental state, conscience, and whether or not you are willing to risk your freedom for your crime.


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## Barcode (Apr 17, 2014)

Backroom81 said:


> This thread:




I think its time to shut this down, good debates, but we're getting farther and farther away from the original point of the topic. Feel free to continue debate in Off Topic forums!


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## commiecorvus (Apr 17, 2014)

A) The case for for voter ID is tissue thin.

In 2012 there was 633 cases of voter fraud in the entire United States out of the hundreds of millions votes cast.
This map breaks it down state by state.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ere_is_in_the_united_states_almost_none_.html
In Pennsylvania the state that I told you about where the head of the Republican party admitted that the only reason they were putting the law into effect was to make it more difficult for (older) black voters (who don't drive and have to get special picture IDs at DMV locations that are far out of their neighborhoods) is five.
You are right that is fucking racism.

Power is it's own reward. 
They have decided that money is speech and the more money you have the louder you can be in our society.
The people who inherited their lifestyle can jam their power down your throat.
Their kids go to the schools they want, their kids don't face crippling debt because of it and their next job is your boss.

I like the idea of no millionaires in congress but I much prefer no millionaires or billionaires being able to buy themselves a congressman.
Term limits are a fine idea but they don't take into account how complicated the job is and that we would have a constant stream of people who would have no idea what they were doing.
That means we would either have the staff writing laws or even worse, as with some of the dumber lawmakers now, the lobbyists.


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