# New vacation policy?



## Deadbydawn

Anyone heard anything about this yet?


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## dcworker

Grabs popcorn at startup


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## Dcnewb4now

What is the second bullet point referring to?


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## Dcnewb4now

Also, look for tons of call ins on thanksgiving and the 4th of July.


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## brizzality

So no more banked holiday hours? Are they going to pay 2.5 times pay then? They added a holiday so now it’s time to take something away.


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## Dcnewb4now

brizzality said:


> So no more banked holiday hours? Are they going to pay 2.5 times pay then? They added a holiday so now it’s time to take something away.


No but who’s going to work holidays. How many people call in on Black Friday?


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## WHS

In a time where staffing is an issue with every company they're taking away one of the few great benefits we had.  Super smart Cornell


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## Angular Momentum

brizzality said:


> So no more banked holiday hours? Are they going to pay 2.5 times pay then? They added a holiday so now it’s time to take something away.


As someone who works in a store.... kinda. You get paid for 8 hours on the holiday whether or not you work. And time and a half for the holiday if you work. So if you work it is basically 2.5 times pay...


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## Luck

The rumor of the first half was going around but the legacy portion is news to me.
Service anniversery as in your hire date i assume right? 
Honestly this whole situation is frustrating. Especially for the A keys, they just lost 2 weeks of (potential) vacation. 
By the way for those who dont know they are also getting rid of paid holiday. I presume we are getting extra vacation days to make up for it.


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## whsDCII

What does the legacy part mean?


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## Dcnewb4now

Luck said:


> The rumor of the first half was going around but the legacy portion is news to me.
> Service anniversery as in your hire date i assume right?
> Honestly this whole situation is frustrating. Especially for the A keys, they just lost 2 weeks of (potential) vacation.
> By the way for those who dont know they are also getting rid of paid holiday. I presume we are getting extra vacation days to make up for it.


Correct. So if you’ve been there 5 years instead of 3 weeks 4 days ph and 4 hours well being, you will get 4 weeks 4 hours vaca. A subtle way to screw you.


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## Luck

whsDCII said:


> What does the legacy part mean?


Means if you are an existing TM they are giving you a grace period under the old system. If you were hired March last year you have until March before you switch over. 
If you were hired in November you get all the way until November. 
That how i interpret it.


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## targetdude1

Dcnewb4now said:


> Correct. So if you’ve been there 5 years instead of 3 weeks 4 days ph and 4 hours well being, you will get 4 weeks 4 hours vaca. A subtle way to screw you.




Where is anywhere stated how many vac hours you will get to replace your PH? I assumed you get the same amount? So just instead of accruing 48 PH hours after 5  yrs, it will now be 48 vac hours?

Edit: For A keys...

Also noticed it says you get holiday pay according to avg hrs? Minor hit there for me since I avged about 34.5 hrs on a 36 hr key last yr (due to all the VNS). I wonder if they will pay over shift length if you are averaging say 38 hr on a 36 key? (Or say 42 hrs on a 4X10 key)? Doubt it.

Also why saying everyone will call in on holidays? I assume the same policy of having to work day before, after, and of holiday (with the caveats, last half etc) to get the holiday pay will apply?

On the positive no more screwing around with well being time? It'll just be 4 more hours standard vac?

Overall no more bank and IF true per my question above, losing 1 PH day on the A keys are decent hits. Too be fair if you get that much more holiday pay, than you can just personally budget to take more VNS later (in other words, get extra $200 holiday pay, means just allow yourself to take an extra VNS day (or several days of leaving a couple hrs early etc) down the line, and the money works out the same as if you took vac). However Vac is always better than VNS since it's preplanned rather than ad hoc so it's still a loss. And while I am, a lot of people probably aren't disciplined to budget like this.

Also as of now we can backfill OT (if sent home etc) with PH and get time and a half. While I never did this lots do. How is that effected? Or did they already end that policy?


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## Dcnewb4now

targetdude1 said:


> Where is anywhere stated how many vac hours you will get to replace your PH? I assumed you get the same amount? So just instead of accruing 48 PH hours after 5  yrs, it will now be 48 vac hours?
> 
> Edit: For A keys...
> 
> Also noticed it says you get holiday pay according to avg hrs? Minor hit there for me since I avged about 34.5 hrs on a 36 hr key last yr (due to all the VNS). I wonder if they will pay over shift length if you are averaging say 38 hr on a 36 key? (Or say 42 hrs on a 4X10 key)? Doubt it.
> 
> Also why saying everyone will call in on holidays? I assume the same policy of having to work day before, after, and of holiday (with the caveats, last half etc) to get the holiday pay will apply?
> 
> On the positive no more screwing around with well being time? It'll just be 4 more hours standard vac?
> 
> Overall no more bank and IF true per my question above, losing 1 PH day on the A keys are decent hits. Too be fair if you get that much more holiday pay, than you can just personally budget to take more VNS later (in other words, get extra $200 holiday pay, means just allow yourself to take an extra VNS day (or several days of leaving a couple hrs early etc) down the line, and the money works out the same as if you took vac). However Vac is always better than VNS since it's preplanned rather than ad hoc so it's still a loss. And while I am, a lot of people probably aren't disciplined to budget like this.
> 
> Also as of now we can backfill OT (if sent home etc) with PH and get time and a half. While I never did this lots do. How is that effected? Or did they already end that policy?


They said they were putting all vacation into one bucket. So for b key tm’s with 5 years in, they will get a total of 164 hours of vacation.
You will still be able to backfill ot with vacation, but it will be straight time instead of time and a half.
I say people will call out because there is no incentive. If I work b key and I am supposed to work thanksgiving, they will pay time and a half for the time you are there. You won’t have to work the day before or after. That rule is in place now but pertains to the banked vaca day.

For instance, if you work thanksgiving and call out Black Friday, they will still give you time and a half for what you worked. Another example, if you just call out on thanksgiving and backfill with vacation time, you are losing like $135. I would take that any time for family time.


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## targetdude1

Dcnewb4now said:


> They said they were putting all vacation into one bucket. So for b key tm’s with 5 years in, they will get a total of 164 hours of vacation.
> You will still be able to backfill ot with vacation, but it will be straight time instead of time and a half.
> I say people will call out because there is no incentive. If I work b key and I am supposed to work thanksgiving, they will pay time and a half for the time you are there. You won’t have to work the day before or after. That rule is in place now but pertains to the banked vaca day.
> 
> For instance, if you work thanksgiving and call out Black Friday, they will still give you time and a half for what you worked. Another example, if you just call out on thanksgiving and backfill with vacation time, you are losing like $135. I would take that any time for family time.




Wont they have the ability to take away your 12 hrs holiday pay for calling in day /of/before/after though? It doesn't just pertain to banked vaca hrs. I'd bet.

By calling in if I understand correctly and if my above thesis is correct, you will essentially lose 2.5X  a day's pay (the .5 OT bonus for working on holiday(.5X), the days holiday bonus pay (1X), and the normal day pay (1X)) by calling in on a holiday. Very steep price. Some people of course will still do it but the incentive should be plenty to keep most there.



> They said they were putting all vacation into one bucket. So for b key tm’s with 5 years in, they will get a total of 164 hours of vacation



Again where do they actually say this though? Say that the # of vac hrs you'd get as a 5 yr B key TM is exactly 164?

I could see it happening because it would be a sneaky way to pinch a penny, but I just havent seen that confirmed.


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## Johnyj7657

So will the entire shift that starts on a holiday still be holiday pay or will you only get say 6 hours if you work a2.

Just gets better and better.
We always say it can't get any worse but target always finds a way.

Years ago you got to choose if you wanted to bank the holiday or take the pay.
Said it was because of the irs which everyone thought was bs.

I'm sure this is to do with the fact that mandatory overtime will be on 11 months a year from now on and don't want people to use the ph loopholes.


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## Dcnewb4now

targetdude1 said:


> Wont they have the ability to take away your 12 hrs holiday pay for calling in day /of/before/after though? It doesn't just pertain to banked vaca hrs. I'd bet.
> 
> By calling in if I understand correctly and if my above thesis is correct, you will essentially lose 2.5X  a day's pay (the .5 OT bonus for working on holiday(.5X), the days holiday bonus pay (1X), and the normal day pay (1X)) by calling in on a holiday. Very steep price. Some people of course will still do it but the incentive should be plenty to keep most there.
> 
> 
> 
> Again where do they actually say this though? Say that the # of vac hrs you'd get as a 5 yr B key TM is exactly 164?
> 
> I could see it happening because it would be a sneaky way to pinch a penny, but I just havent seen that confirmed.


The communication isn’t very clear at all. So you are thinking that they are paying you 1.5x for working the holiday and then 1x your average hours, rather than give you vacation time?

That wouldn’t be horrible, but if that is the case then they need to communicate that better. Literally everyone at my dc took it as they were just taking away the vaca bank and you would just get 1.5x pay for they day. If that scenario is the case, they wouldn’t have leverage to make you work the last half before/fist half after a holiday.

There was a different email as well that talked about the “simplified” vacation and how it was all migrating to vacation from ph/wb/vaca. Again, not super clear with details but that is what I gathered from the other email.


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## Dcnewb4now

Johnyj7657 said:


> So will the entire shift that starts on a holiday still be holiday pay or will you only get say 6 hours if you work a2.
> 
> Just gets better and better.
> We always say it can't get any worse but target always finds a way.
> 
> Years ago you got to choose if you wanted to bank the holiday or take the pay.
> Said it was because of the irs which everyone thought was bs.
> 
> I'm sure this is to do with the fact that mandatory overtime will be on 11 months a year from now on and don't want people to use the ph loopholes.


Nothing has changed that I have seen. Days begin and end at 6am. We had label printers come in the day after Christmas and got 2 hrs 1.5 and 12 hrs vaca


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## Hal

It doesn't take effect until February I believe.

Once again the email wasn't super clear. But what I got was that you now get double time and a half for the holiday. So you get time and half for working and then also get it paid out to you.


Our SD and HR both said in exact words "this is what we think but this communication is terrible and we'll let you know when we know more."


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## Angular Momentum

Hal said:


> It doesn't take effect until February I believe.
> 
> Once again the email wasn't super clear. But what I got was that you now get double time and a half for the holiday. So you get time and half for working and then also get it paid out to you.
> 
> 
> Our SD and HR both said in exact words "this is what we think but this communication is terrible and we'll let you know when we know more."


That's how it is for me. Etls bank a holiday, TLs get paid 8 hours for the day whether they worked or not and if they work it's 1.5 times pay as well.

I wish we had the ability to bank a holiday but the extra 8 hours on my paycheck is nice...


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## dcguy86

So let's use a round number  lets say I make a $25 pay base and I work July 4th I would be getting my base pay doubled plus 12.50 so 62.50 for 12 hrs. Am I understanding that correctly?


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## Dcnewb4now

Hal said:


> It doesn't take effect until February I believe.
> 
> Once again the email wasn't super clear. But what I got was that you now get double time and a half for the holiday. So you get time and half for working and then also get it paid out to you.
> 
> 
> Our SD and HR both said in exact words "this is what we think but this communication is terrible and we'll let you know when we know more."


For a company the size of target that is, frankly, ridiculous. You can’t send an email to every team member as vague as it was. All you will get is confusion and pissed of team members.
Target 🎯 for the win.


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## InboundDCguy

dcguy86 said:


> So let's use a round number  lets say I make a $25 pay base and I work July 4th I would be getting my base pay doubled plus 12.50 so 62.50 for 12 hrs. Am I understanding that correctly?


Yes, plus your shift differential.

Edit: The math gets a little fuzzy if you’re working OT on a holiday because the shift lengths will be different. 90% of people only worked OT on holidays to bank the hours anyway though, so I wouldn’t see that happening nearly as much now that there’s no benefit.


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## Luck

dcguy86 said:


> So let's use a round number  lets say I make a $25 pay base and I work July 4th I would be getting my base pay doubled plus 12.50 so 62.50 for 12 hrs. Am I understanding that correctly?


Thinking about it i am now curious, previously even if you only worked 1 hour you banked the whole day. 
Now, do you immediately get the full day of pay even if you only sign up for a half or VLE early?


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## Hal

Dcnewb4now said:


> For a company the size of target that is, frankly, ridiculous. You can’t send an email to every team member as vague as it was. All you will get is confusion and pissed of team members.
> Target 🎯 for the win.


This is every roll out from HQ ever. I'm convinced they're not real people but machines learning human emotions.


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## redeye58

Hal said:


> machines learning human emotions.


Not a very good pool of humans to work with up there.


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## Johnyj7657

Annoying that I'll lose 4 days of vacation a year.

The pay instead is a joke,  you just get bent over by the irs.
I'll probly get a hundred bucks take home ID rather have more time away from the hell hole


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## Dcnewb4now

Johnyj7657 said:


> Annoying that I'll lose 4 days of vacation a year.
> 
> The pay instead is a joke,  you just get bent over by the irs.
> I'll probly get a hundred bucks take home ID rather have more time away from the hell hole


The idea that you will “get bent by the irs” is a farce. At the very least your refund will be higher.


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## Dcnewb4now

Hal said:


> This is every roll out from HQ ever. I'm convinced they're not real people but machines learning human emotions.


That or they are out to get dc leadership. They were just as pissed off and confused as the rest of the team.


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## ManMythMachine

Deadbydawn said:


> View attachment 13248
> 
> Anyone heard anything about this yet?










A keys... No Labor Day Mondays banked. No Memorial Day Mondays banked.  No Independence Day is on Monday this year banked.  No Juneteenth is on Sunday this year banked.   No New Years Day is on Saturday this year banked.  Gone all gone.

I feel bad for you too B keys.  You did have Thanksgiving.  But A keys; we had like a whole festivus of BANK.  ALL GONE NOW GO BYE BYE.  I feel like poor old Uncle Billy after losing eight thousand bucks and all I have to show for it is a knotted string on my finger and a yet to be stuffed squirrel on my shoulder.  So sad.

I knew this shift differential raise would come back to bite our collective asses!

NOT A FINGA !!!


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## ManMythMachine

Johnyj7657 said:


> Annoying that I'll lose 4 days of vacation a year.



Five actually, but who's counting?  Or did I just... 

Hold that thought.


Remember on holidays how we never had to worry about getting enough people to show up?  Like Thanksgiving week we knew it is one of the busiest weeks but on Thanksgiving itself everyone would show up to get that sweet sweet bank?  At least half a day.  You'd see that one guy who you thought died because they were LOA for two years but here they are, at start-up, ready to bank that holiday.  Welp, NOT ANYMORE!  Now it will be tons of call outs.  Same as any other day.  Good planning Spotty.  YOU RUINED IT!  Double mandatory OT because without banking vacay incentive, it will all go down the mezz trash tubes into the dumpsters.  

But who's counting?


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## qmosqueen

So are most TMs maxed out now that it lumped  into one.


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## ManMythMachine

qmosqueen said:


> So are most TMs maxed out now that it lumped  into one.


I doubt it.  PH accrues very slowly.  about .93 for 36 hours worked.  So in a full year, even with a ton of overtime, I usally only amass about 5 days of PH.

The banked vacation on holidays accounts for more.  Spot probably did this so it can cut down on the amount of vacation time people have overall.  Some people use any time they have right away.  I usually sit here with about one hundred plus vacation hours of hoarded vacation time and look down on my fellow vacation bankrupt team members like Mister Potter taking over the bank in Bedford Falls.  "Because they're panicking and I'm not."  - George Bailey

I look at it this way.  I only work 3 days  week.  I have off more days than I work.  It's like semi-retirement.  So unless I'm going somewhere I don't use my vacation. Or if it hits so high it stops accruing... um yeah, then I use it! 

I'd probably cash out some but it's not allowed.


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## targetdude1

ManMythMachine said:


> I doubt it.  PH accrues very slowly.  about .93 for 36 hours worked.  So in a full year, even with a ton of overtime, I usally only amass about 5 days of PH.
> 
> The banked vacation on holidays accounts for more.  Spot probably did this so it can cut down on the amount of vacation time people have overall.  Some people use any time they have right away.  I usually sit here with about one hundred plus vacation hours of hoarded vacation time and look down on my fellow vacation bankrupt team members like Mister Potter taking over the bank in Bedford Falls.  "Because they're panicking and I'm not."  - George Bailey
> 
> I look at it this way.  I only work 3 days  week.  I have off more days than I work.  It's like semi-retirement.  So unless I'm going somewhere I don't use my vacation. Or if it hits so high it stops accruing... um yeah, then I use it!
> 
> I'd probably cash out some but it's not allowed.



Yep, you're one of THOSE guys. You actually like coming to work. I have a coworker that hordes vacation like he's mr scrooge. Always cackling gleefully about it. Truth be told he loves coming to work at target, so why would he take vacation? Gets on my nerves TBH. He usually ends up only using it to backfill. Like he's gotten soft so he took a injury LOA and he just backfilled up to 100% pay for like 6 months (since they only pay 75% or whatever it is).

You are so right about 36 hrs and being off so much. Wish I could get back in that mindset.

Anyways I asked a HR guy about this today. He claims we do not lose any PH hours, and we get 2.5x pay on holidays. Best case scenario basically IMO, because both were honestly in question IMO. I thought it was possible our PH days would go poof, and we would only get 1.5X pay on holiday.

Although I still think we do, because he said we get X weeks vacation, which my 4 days PH on the A keys being replaced by 3 days vaca means I lose a day, I did not press him on that. Still, IFFFF what he said is true my worst fears and some of the ones being thrown around here by people who like to be negative (like that we are just losing all PH hours period replaced by nothing) are untrue.

It seems we wont know EXACTLY how it works til it gets here, which is crappy, but so far so good.

Also I noticed HR has a flyer available that has wording stating you can find the details and FAQ on targerpayandbefits.com under timeoff, which I was very interested to look at. However no such details or FAQ currently exists on that page that I could find. I assume that's coming later, but another target "oopsie" moment.

Nonetheless having put that positive spin on it, losing banked holiday vaca hours is a pretty big blow in a way. Like I said though if you budget or just have a constant buffer in the bank, you can just increase the amount of VNS you take over the year and it works the same. Every extra 12 hours holiday pay you receive is 12 hrs you can allow yourself to VNS later and still get essentially paid for, so it can equal the same amount of time off for the year as you received when you could bank, you just manage it yourself (provided of course VNS is available over the yr, which in my dept/key/building is usually not a problem as we usually do the hit plan>send the willing home thing even in our busiest times). Of course the drawback is you cannot preplan this time off it has to be ad hoc VNS, which I agree is a pretty big drawback.

The other thing is while this yr seems safe, I have to wonder if this opens up further vaca related reductions in the future. For example this yr has already started so they could not take away PH hours essentially already promised too us. In the future years though I feel like they could as long as they give notice.


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## Dcnewb4now

ManMythMachine said:


> I doubt it.  PH accrues very slowly.  about .93 for 36 hours worked.  So in a full year, even with a ton of overtime, I usally only amass about 5 days of PH.
> 
> The banked vacation on holidays accounts for more.  Spot probably did this so it can cut down on the amount of vacation time people have overall.  Some people use any time they have right away.  I usually sit here with about one hundred plus vacation hours of hoarded vacation time and look down on my fellow vacation bankrupt team members like Mister Potter taking over the bank in Bedford Falls.  "Because they're panicking and I'm not."  - George Bailey
> 
> I look at it this way.  I only work 3 days  week.  I have off more days than I work.  It's like semi-retirement.  So unless I'm going somewhere I don't use my vacation. Or if it hits so high it stops accruing... um yeah, then I use it!
> 
> I'd probably cash out some but it's not allowed.


Your ph accrues at the same rate every week no matter how many hours you work. There is no way you amass 5 in a year. The most you can get in a year is 4 and that is when you have been with the company 5-25+ years. Your vacation accrual is dependent on hours worked.


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## Hal

You're actually going to accrue more vacation time now. So basically if you were accruing 2.5 hours of vacation (purely an example) and .5 hours of PH working your regular schedule you now earn 3 hours of vacation and the total bucket is a combo of what your vacation and PH were separately.

So if you normally earned 120 vacation and 36 PH you now earn 156 a year and the max accrual is a combo of the two.

I don't care for the change but industry wide most companies do PTO in one bucket (Walmart for example). My buddy use to look at me weird when I told him I have two buckets of vacation.


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## Dcnewb4now

targetdude1 said:


> Yep, you're one of THOSE guys. You actually like coming to work. I have a coworker that hordes vacation like he's mr scrooge. Always cackling gleefully about it. Truth be told he loves coming to work at target, so why would he take vacation? Gets on my nerves TBH. He usually ends up only using it to backfill. Like he's gotten soft so he took a injury LOA and he just backfilled up to 100% pay for like 6 months (since they only pay 75% or whatever it is).
> 
> You are so right about 36 hrs and being off so much. Wish I could get back in that mindset.
> 
> Anyways I asked a HR guy about this today. He claims we do not lose any PH hours, and we get 2.5x pay on holidays. Best case scenario basically IMO, because both were honestly in question IMO. I thought it was possible our PH days would go poof, and we would only get 1.5X pay on holiday.
> 
> Although I still think we do, because he said we get X weeks vacation, which my 4 days PH on the A keys being replaced by 3 days vaca means I lose a day, I did not press him on that. Still, IFFFF what he said is true my worst fears and some of the ones being thrown around here by people who like to be negative (like that we are just losing all PH hours period replaced by nothing) are untrue.
> 
> It seems we wont know EXACTLY how it works til it gets here, which is crappy, but so far so good.
> 
> Also I noticed HR has a flyer available that has wording stating you can find the details and FAQ on targerpayandbefits.com under timeoff, which I was very interested to look at. However no such details or FAQ currently exists on that page that I could find. I assume that's coming later, but another target "oopsie" moment.
> 
> Nonetheless having put that positive spin on it, losing banked holiday vaca hours is a pretty big blow in a way. Like I said though if you budget or just have a constant buffer in the bank, you can just increase the amount of VNS you take over the year and it works the same. Every extra 12 hours holiday pay you receive is 12 hrs you can allow yourself to VNS later and still get essentially paid for, so it can equal the same amount of time off for the year as you received when you could bank, you just manage it yourself (provided of course VNS is available over the yr, which in my dept/key/building is usually not a problem as we usually do the hit plan>send the willing home thing even in our busiest times). Of course the drawback is you cannot preplan this time off it has to be ad hoc VNS, which I agree is a pretty big drawback.
> 
> The other thing is while this yr seems safe, I have to wonder if this opens up further vaca related reductions in the future. For example this yr has already started so they could not take away PH hours essentially already promised too us. In the future years though I feel like they could as long as they give notice.


I’ve seen a document on pay and benefits and you do lose well being hours. But it seems that you only lose them if you get to a new service anniversary (5/10/25 years) or shift change. Otherwise you stay in the “legacy accrual plan”.


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## whsDCII

Basically what I've learned this weekend is all us current TMs are going to continue to accrue at our current rates (minus the 4 hours of well being) until we hit one of the 5/10/25 milestones. The difference is the pH hours will now be vacation. So no more using pH to get OT money. 

The biggest difference (once you hit the milestone and enter the new plan) will only affect the A keys. The accrual rate is based off what it takes to hit Max vacation (112 hours for 0-5 years for example) if you average 40 hrs/week. So while the B keys will hit 112 with no OT, the A keys will only hit 100ish hours if they only average 36. Since they no longer accrue PH at a higher rate than the B keys do.


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## InboundDCguy

Has anyone been told (by someone who isn’t guessing) that this takes effect at milestones? To me, a “service anniversary” happens every year, regardless if it’s a 7th or a 10th.


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## UzumakiNaruto

Yeah its the same amount of _hours _But its not the same amount of pay. you lose all PH benefits theres mandatory 9/12 months a year and PH it the only way to secure those hours when you take a vacation now you get to work an extra day before vacation and only get paid your normal rate for it. This would only be fair if they allowed taking vacation and not using vacation hours


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## whsDCII

InboundDCguy said:


> Has anyone been told (by someone who isn’t guessing) that this takes effect at milestones? To me, a “service anniversary” happens every year, regardless if it’s a 7th or a 10th.


Yes we specifically asked and our OM got clarification from HR yesterday that it's a milestone and not your next yearly anniversary.


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## targetdude1

InboundDCguy said:


> Has anyone been told (by someone who isn’t guessing) that this takes effect at milestones? To me, a “service anniversary” happens every year, regardless if it’s a 7th or a 10th.



Yeah, a "service anniversary" happens every year. That some people were told otherwise isn't 100% proof. As usual just lots of hearsay. But I'm willing to go with it since I believe multiple people are saying it.


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## Luck

whsDCII said:


> Yes we specifically asked and our OM got clarification from HR yesterday that it's a milestone and not your next yearly anniversary.


Thats great! Execept this year is my 5 anyway. Whoohoo...


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## ManMythMachine

Dcnewb4now said:


> Your ph accrues at the same rate every week no matter how many hours you work. There is no way you amass 5 in a year. The most you can get in a year is 4 and that is when you have been with the company 5-25+ years. Your vacation accrual is dependent on hours worked.


Learn something new every day!  I guess I never did have more than 48 hours PH.  Makes sense it stays the same.  But now since PH will roll into VAC hours I guess none of us have to worry about it.  Thanks Spot!  

While they say they are streamlining I get the feeling they are steamrolling.  Right over our vacation loving souls.  It falls into line that since no one can bank vacation for the holiday it will cut down on people having more vacation time overall and add more working hours into THEIR bucket.  Even if we get 2 or 2.5 times pay while working on the holiday; it's still better for them than letting us bank and use it whenever. For planning and budget purposes this is a big win for Spot.

Like they say in Full Metal Jacket, "God plays his games and we play ours."


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## UzumakiNaruto

ManMythMachine said:


> Learn something new every day!  I guess I never did have more than 48 hours PH.  Makes sense it stays the same.  But now since PH will roll into VAC hours I guess none of us have to worry about it.  Thanks Spot!
> 
> While they say they are streamlining I get the feeling they are steamrolling.  Right over our vacation loving souls.  It falls into line that since no one can bank vacation for the holiday it will cut down on people having more vacation time overall and add more working hours into THEIR bucket.  Even if we get 2 or 2.5 times pay while working on the holiday; it's still better for them than letting us bank and use it whenever. For planning and budget purposes this is a big win for Spot.
> 
> Like they say in Full Metal Jacket, "God plays his games and we play ours."


Yep they are taking away DC vacation time so they can give it to Store TM instead of taking out of Brian Cornels 19 mil salary to give them proper vacation hours


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## targetdude1

whsDCII said:


> Basically what I've learned this weekend is all us current TMs are going to continue to accrue at our current rates (minus the 4 hours of well being) until we hit one of the 5/10/25 milestones. The difference is the pH hours will now be vacation. So no more using pH to get OT money.
> 
> The biggest difference (once you hit the milestone and enter the new plan) will only affect the A keys. The accrual rate is based off what it takes to hit Max vacation (112 hours for 0-5 years for example) if you average 40 hrs/week. So while the B keys will hit 112 with no OT, the A keys will only hit 100ish hours if they only average 36. Since they no longer accrue PH at a higher rate than the B keys do.




None of this makes any sense lol. we dont earn 112 hours we earn (0-5 yrs) 2X36=72 on A keys. On B keys you earn 2X40=80. Neither number is equal 112.  Basically no combo of anything gets you to the numbers 112 (except including well being time plus PH time to A key, but no combo for B key which is what you mention). or "100ish"


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## whsDCII

PH and well being time are going away. The new 112 Max annual hours of vacation is indeed 72vac+36ph+4wb. That standard is the official number for everyone now. Technically the B keys should get 80+30+4 for 114 hours so they're losing 2.

The "100ish" comes from the new vacation per hour accrual rates.

Currently A keys earn just under .058 vac+ph hours for every hour worked (if they work all 36 hours and no OT). The new accrual rate is .0538something vac hours for every hour worked. That number X 40 hours per week X 52 weeks per year = 112 hours of vacation on the B keys. That number multiplied by only 36 hours per week on the A keys only comes out to 100.7ish hours of vacation for the year. So the A keys will have to work 23 days of OT to have a chance to get their full vacation benefit. Mostly effects merit people who work very limited OT.

Does that make more sense?


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## BullseyeBabe

I thought the max vacation hours were. I have a little under 300. So are you saying I won’t start accruing vacation time until I get down to 112 hours?


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## whsDCII

BullseyeBabe said:


> I thought the max vacation hours were. I have a little under 300. So are you saying I won’t start accruing vacation time until I get down to 112 hours?


Are you under 5 years? I feel like you're probably past that so it would be a different number for you.

Max you can earn in a year will be 112 but the total you could have before you stop accruing will be around 160. Currently it's complicated with the hours from banked holidays but that won't be the case in the future.

If you have 300 hours right now are you ever gonna take it all? It might not matter if you stop accruing for a while lol


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## targetdude1

whsDCII said:


> PH and well being time are going away. The new 112 Max annual hours of vacation is indeed 72vac+36ph+4wb. That standard is the official number for everyone now. Technically the B keys should get 80+30+4 for 114 hours so they're losing 2.
> 
> The "100ish" comes from the new vacation per hour accrual rates.
> 
> Currently A keys earn just under .058 vac+ph hours for every hour worked (if they work all 36 hours and no OT). The new accrual rate is .0538something vac hours for every hour worked. That number X 40 hours per week X 52 weeks per year = 112 hours of vacation on the B keys. That number multiplied by only 36 hours per week on the A keys only comes out to 100.7ish hours of vacation for the year. So the A keys will have to work 23 days of OT to have a chance to get their full vacation benefit. Mostly effects merit people who work very limited OT.
> 
> Does that make more sense?




maybe sorta... You said 112 was for the B keys, but it only adds up for the A keys old method, not B key any method. And why would they use A key old number as the new base for anything? B key is the larger more fundamental keys.

Target gives employees weeks of vacation and days of ph, not any other method, so I kind of doubt they're just randomly changing that now. So they are going to tell B1 <5 yrs "you get 11 days and a little more" or "11.2 days" vacation? It just seems an odd complication vs "you get x weeks of vac per yr" or X days of PH per yr.

If what you say is true we just took a significant hit to our annual accrual. I'd like a real source for that. My HR guy claimed we lose nothing vs the old method for example (yeah I trust that as far as I can throw it but anyway)

Also as an oldy, what are the new hourly accrual numbers for 10+ and 20+ years seniority according to your source? Do you have that?

I'd like to know where you learned these very exact specifics anyway.

If this is true thats nearly a 10% hit to Vac+PH, plus losing maybe like 5 more days of holiday bank. Ouch. Too be fair at my building I can make most of the banked holiday vac loss back by just taking more VNS with the overall annual pay not changing, but, as I keep noting, VNS isn't as good as vac.


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## whsDCII

targetdude1 said:


> maybe sorta... You said 112 was for the B keys, but it only adds up for the A keys old method, not B key any method. And why would they use A key old number as the new base for anything? B key is the larger more fundamental keys.
> 
> Target gives employees weeks of vacation and days of ph, not any other method, so I kind of doubt they're just randomly changing that now. So they are going to tell B1 <5 yrs "you get 11 days and a little more" or "11.2 days" vacation? It just seems an odd complication vs "you get x weeks of vac per yr" or X days of PH per yr.
> 
> If what you say is true we just took a significant hit to our annual accrual. I'd like a real source for that. My HR guy claimed we lose nothing vs the old method for example (yeah I trust that as far as I can throw it but anyway)
> 
> Also as an oldy, what are the new hourly accrual numbers for 10+ and 20+ years seniority according to your source? Do you have that?
> 
> I'd like to know where you learned these very exact specifics anyway.
> 
> If this is true thats nearly a 10% hit to Vac+PH, plus losing maybe like 5 more days of holiday bank. Ouch. Too be fair at my building I can make most of the banked holiday vac loss back by just taking more VNS with the overall annual pay not changing, but, as I keep noting, VNS isn't as good as vac.



I mean.... I don't even need a source anymore it's in the handbook now. It's 112 hours max up to 5 years, which doesn't affect us anyway because we already work here so we're grandfathered in to the "legacy plan" until we hit 5 years. Then 160, 200, and 240. But if you do the math... The A keys will need to work a significant amount of OT to hit those maxes.


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## Dream Baby

whsDCII said:


> Are you under 5 years? I feel like you're probably past that so it would be a different number for you.
> 
> Max you can earn in a year will be 112 but the total you could have before you stop accruing will be around 160. Currently it's complicated with the hours from banked holidays but that won't be the case in the future.
> 
> If you have 300 hours right now are you ever gonna take it all? It might not matter if you stop accruing for a while lol


300 hours!

Hopefully your state makes Target pay out unused vacation if you are termed.


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## ManMythMachine

targetdude1 said:


> maybe sorta... You said 112 was for the B keys, but it only adds up for the A keys old method, not B key any method. And why would they use A key old number as the new base for anything? B key is the larger more fundamental keys.
> 
> Target gives employees weeks of vacation and days of ph, not any other method, so I kind of doubt they're just randomly changing that now. So they are going to tell B1 <5 yrs "you get 11 days and a little more" or "11.2 days" vacation? It just seems an odd complication vs "you get x weeks of vac per yr" or X days of PH per yr.
> 
> If what you say is true we just took a significant hit to our annual accrual. I'd like a real source for that. My HR guy claimed we lose nothing vs the old method for example (yeah I trust that as far as I can throw it but anyway)
> 
> Also as an oldy, what are the new hourly accrual numbers for 10+ and 20+ years seniority according to your source? Do you have that?
> 
> I'd like to know where you learned these very exact specifics anyway.
> 
> If this is true thats nearly a 10% hit to Vac+PH, plus losing maybe like 5 more days of holiday bank. Ouch. Too be fair at my building I can make most of the banked holiday vac loss back by just taking more VNS with the overall annual pay not changing, but, as I keep noting, VNS isn't as good as vac.


Spot recognizes seven paid holidays.  Two of these are always on A keys.  Memorial Day and Labor Day.  So 24 hours banked Memorial Day and Labor Day and minimum 10 hours x 5  hours banked for Juneteenth, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years. So we are losing at a minimum 74 hours of banked vacation TIME.  Actually I think A key team members even got 12 banked hours for working on a 10 hour B key holiday (can't remember). 

 Because they are upping the payrate for working on a holiday from 1.5 to  2.5 we are making more PAY for working on the holiday but we are losing at least 74 chances of taking time away from work.  If you like more money then maybe this works for you?  If you like more work/life balance then maybe this sucks for you?  I like having banked vacation better because it's not taxed more like the 2.5 times payrate is and I like having 74 more hours (6 or 7 more days and chances  away from work), than the extra taxed extra pay but that's just me.  Because I'm better at being lazy.   Know thyself. 

 So it all depends on how you want to define the word, "lose".


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## targetdude1

> I mean.... I don't even need a source anymore it's in the handbook now. It's 112 hours max up to 5 years, which doesn't affect us anyway because we already work here so we're grandfathered in to the "legacy plan" until we hit 5 years. Then 160, 200, and 240. But if you do the math... The A keys will need to work a significant amount of OT to hit those maxes.



The handbook, that thing they gave me over a decade ago when I started??? LOL. They have not given me a handbook in years.

But I went on payandbenefits.com cus I figured you meant they updated and found that.

Anyways in legacy accrual plan I lose nothing, VAC earned  is exactly the same as the amount of vac+ph I earn now. In the "new" plan I go from ~3.6 accrued per week to...~3.5. So yeah, turns out to be much ado about nearly nothing. This is 10-25 yr bracket.
The other brackets may differ but at a glance not too much.

Except losing bank holidays of course which does kind of suck (but then again, more ka-ching).

I'm still not sure when one would transition except apparently changing shifts. Will apparently give a very slight incentive to stay on the same key?

Max accrual hrs I'm not concerned with since I've never worked enough OT to stop accruing vacation. Whatever the case it should be no harder to hit than it was before. I see the confusion, when you said max accrual I interpreted that as the amount we used to get annually. So it seemed like you were saying we would get significantly less (Have to work OT just to catch up).

Anyways I'm pleased to finally get some increased clarity, and learn I lose little to no weekly accrual.


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## InboundDCguy

Apparently the “legacy accrual plan” just means the rate at which you accrue. All of my PH and well being hours got moved to my vacation bucket this week. 😡


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## Dcnewb4now

InboundDCguy said:


> Apparently the “legacy accrual plan” just means the rate at which you accrue. All of my PH and well being hours got moved to my vacation bucket this week. 😡


That is correct. Legacy accrual just means you the rate is higher. They will effectively be getting rid of wellness time.


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